Paid parking DND property

[Fishbone Jones]

RoyalDrew and AmmoTech90, please take your discussion to PM. It has nothing to do with the parking thread.

---Staff---

 

[George Wallace]

Playing devil's advocate again, but how is paying for parking considered a fee to work for someone?

What would you call it?

 

[Remius]

What would you call it?

You answered the question with a question.

 

[Remius]

So, the local armoury here is twined with the city police training establishment. The property is owned by the city and leased by DND for the military portion. It has a common parking lot for military, police functions, civic and community events.It is not on a bus route (during evening hours). Parking is free, first come, first parked.How is TB going to tell the City that everyone can park in the parking lot for free.

Oh, except for Reservists, you'll have to charge them for parking but anyone else is good to go.

If you try apply the prices in this thread, many Reservists will be working for almost free.

And that will only last for a couple of months before the NES letters start going out and kit starts getting turned in.

In many cases, they are already treated like a pariah this will only serve to alienate them that much more.

Scramble parking is a different issue and is exempt from being a taxable benefit.  Reservists would most likely be considered irregular work thus exempt as well.  Again, not every area of work is subject to this.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When did free parking suddenly become an entitlement?

TB guidelines and CRA policies on taxable benefits have been in place for quite some time.  Some organisations either ignored them for years or didn't think it applied to them.  DND and the CF are some of the worst offenders when it comes to those policies and we sit there and complain when it's time to pay the piper after years of getting a free ride.

Citing unlimited liability, serving Canada and the ghost of Rick Hillier does nothing but make us all look like a bunch of entitled spoiled children...

I'm one of the people who have to, respectfully (this isn't worth  :slapfight: over to me), say I disagree.  Taxpayers, including me, have paid for any/all "public" parking lots and buildings.  Why should I then have to pay to park there?  This Fair Market Value stuff is BS.  It's just a means to charge more for PMQs then they are ACTUALLY worth, and to make $ having people pay to park on parking lots their very own tax dollars pay for.  And that makes sense how?

Just another method of picking pockets.  Jacob and Ebenezer would be proud.

Yup, things are being chipped away, and morale and GAFF will go with it. 

 

[Remius]

Well I've provided the links as to what situation applies to what, when it's a taxable benefit and when it isn't.  Free parking for everyone is never going to happen.  Where do we limit it then? Free bus passes? Free daycare? Free razors and free dry cleaning.

I will admit that not every situation is cut and dry but if you work in downtown Halifax and you get free parking it's a benefit that is taxable.  Otherwise you pay like everyone else.  DND has not been following the act that they are subject to and now they've been told to comply.  It was never an entitlement to begin with.  Nothing has been taken away even though it feels that way.

 

[George Wallace]

Well I've provided the links as to what situation applies to what, when it's a taxable benefit and when it isn't.  Free parking for everyone is never going to happen.  Where do we limit it then? Free bus passes? Free daycare? Free razors and free dry cleaning.

I will admit that not every situation is cut and dry but if you work in downtown Halifax and you get free parking it's a benefit that is taxable.  Otherwise you pay like everyone else.  DND has not been following the act that they are subject to and now they've been told to comply.  It was never an entitlement to begin with.  Nothing has been taken away even though it feels that way.

Let me see.... Drivers have to pay for their fuel, maintenance and repairs to their vehicles.  Those using Public Transit have to pay for passes.  Those using daycare must pay.....Your point?  Everyone is already paying.....and it is taxed.  Now Drivers have to pay on top of all that and again are taxed.  So I ask you again:  What would you call it, if not a fee for the privilege to work? 

So far you reasoning has not satisfied me, nor many others.

 

[chrisf]

So will "labelled" spots be charged for parking as well? Will the co have to run out and put change in the meter at his/her spot every four hours?

What boggles me about this, while yes, a great many employees of private industry pay for parking, those who don't aren't charged as if it were a taxable benefit... Hell, I worked for another government department that shall be unnamed, who recently eliminated a large quantity of "long term parking" for folks who worked away for extended periods, at first the response from management was that the federal government doesn't provide parking, however when it was suddenly realized that the folks formerly using that parking were in high demand by private industry and not quickly or easily replaced, accommodations were quickly made...

If it's a problem for any navy folks who are working at stad, the offshore industry may be very interested in your resumes.

 

[Occam]

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread.  That said, I haven't seen here or in the media coverage anything saying where the money will go.  Consolidated Revenue Fund?

Are all government departments going to be subject to this policy?  I find it hard to believe that the Taj Mahal....errrr, I mean new CSIS building will be a pay parking zone.  Could happen, but I'd be surprised.

 

[Remius]

Let me see.... Drivers have to pay for their fuel, maintenance and repairs to their vehicles.  Those using Public Transit have to pay for passes.  Those using daycare must pay.....Your point?  Everyone is already paying.....and it is taxed.  Now Drivers have to pay on top of all that and again are taxed.  So I ask you again:  What would you call it, if not a fee for the privilege to work? 

So far you reasoning has not satisfied me, nor many others.

It's parking. That's what you are paying for.  To park your car.  Not to work.  How you get to work is your own problem not the employer.  Just like having to pay for your own gas to get to work or pay for a shiny bike to do the same, it's part of the cost that you decide to undertake to get to your place of employment. It has a value and if it is provided free of charge, the government sees that as value added for what you are being compensated for. 

If it is such an injustice write to your MP about how unfair it is.  Just make sure that you have a solid point as to why the CF should be exempt when every other Canadian isn't.

 

[Remius]

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread.  That said, I haven't seen here or in the media coverage anything saying where the money will go.  Consolidated Revenue Fund?

Are all government departments going to be subject to this policy?  I find it hard to believe that the Taj Mahal....errrr, I mean new CSIS building will be a pay parking zone.  Could happen, but I'd be surprised.

Likely because it is a non topic.  All government departments and all civilian and private industry are all subject to this, it isn't new.  I don't believe that CSIS is subject to the FAA under schedule 1 and 4 but they are still bound by the income tax act  as an employer which is what drives this policy

 

[George Wallace]

  Just make sure that you have a solid point as to why the CF should be exempt when every other Canadian isn't.

Sorry, but I don't think this is a CF problem only.  It is a general across the board problem that affect more than DND and CAF employees.  A vague inconspicuous Regulation that sat on the books for ages and was never applied, probably due to some common sense.  Now some "bean counter" who looking for brownie points on how (s)he could shaft the public found it and thought it a good idea to force on all the parking lots of Federal buildings and installations.  No doubt they got a great big honking Christmas bonus.  :

 

[Remius]

George it has been applied to most federal buildings for a while now.  This isn't new nor is it something they just pulled out of their hats.  I had to deal with this exact issue at the CFRC in 2001 when JAG wanted one of our spots for, the JAG and then years later when someone wanted park in one of our spots and we had to change our procedures for scramble parking.  I can also confirm that many departments charged for parking and provided tax info on people's pay for things like staff cars and assigned parking well before that.

It is likely that someone either complained that DND employees were getting a better deal when they weren't or that CRA figured out that DND wasn't compliant.

 

[Crispy Bacon]

Oh, except for Reservists, you'll have to charge them for parking but anyone else is good to go.

If you try apply the prices in this thread, many Reservists will be working for almost free.

And that will only last for a couple of months before the NES letters start going out and kit starts getting turned in.

In many cases, they are already treated like a pariah this will only serve to alienate them that much more.

+1

Parking downtown Ottawa easily runs $12-20.  For a Corporal to make $60 (half day's pay), or $50 after deductions, they're going to pay $20 for parking and spend their "voluntary" evening doing training for a measly $10 per hour?  Acen and I are speaking of the same unit, which is why I find it odd that he's (now) saying there's no issue with parking at the armoury.

 

[George Wallace]

+1

Parking downtown Ottawa easily runs $12-20.  For a Corporal to make $60 (half day's pay), or $50 after deductions, they're going to pay $20 for parking and spending their "voluntary" evening doing training for a measly $10 per hour?  Acen and I are speaking of the same unit, which is why I find it odd that he's (now) saying there's no issue with parking at the armoury.

A bit of clarification is in order, so as to avert total panic.  In the majority of cases, these fees are applied only during daylight working hours.  Most Reservists parade in the evenings when many of those lots are open for free parking. 

 

[Remius]

You mean the armoury that has free parking at the nearby school, free parking on the the streets in the evening and on weekends? The same armoury that has a deal with city hall to charge 2.50 flat rate as long as you produce mil ID on your designated training night? Assuming you didn't get one of the free spots at the daycare or the drill hall or the 5 min walk from the rideau centre bus station?

CSDH is likely not a good example of what you are trying to say. 

The real kick is likely the bases in Halifax and esquilmeault which will see a significant expense added to their monthly budget.

 

[Remius]

Saw the clarification after I posted but yeah.

 

[George Wallace]

We'll have to see more civilians hired as Commissionaires to be Metermaids.

 

[Crispy Bacon]

You mean the armoury that has free parking at the nearby school,

The school with huge "NO PARKING" signs that tickets and/or tows people who park there?

free parking on the the streets in the evening and on weekends?

Where?

The same armoury that has a deal with city hall to charge 2.50 flat rate as long as you produce mil ID on your designated training night?

Never heard of that before.  I could be mistaken, and I hope so.

Assuming you didn't get one of the free spots at the daycare

The daycare also tickets and/or tows.

Even the Junior Ranks' Mess only has two parking spaces, and they will ticket and/or tow people who park there without receiving a parking pass from the Mess Manager.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's parking. That's what you are paying for.  To park your car.  Not to work.  How you get to work is your own problem not the employer.  Just like having to pay for your own gas to get to work or pay for a shiny bike to do the same, it's part of the cost that you decide to undertake to get to your place of employment. It has a value and if it is provided free of charge, the government sees that as value added for what you are being compensated for. 

If it is such an injustice write to your MP about how unfair it is.  Just make sure that you have a solid point as to why the CF should be exempt when every other Canadian isn't.

I note you keep bypassing the fact these parking lots are owned and paid for by taxpayers, they are not the same as the downtown parkades like I use sometimes when I go to MEC on Granville.  BIG difference.