Palestinian girl shot from 700 m distance? Opinion please.

[joaquim]

Hello everyone,
   There is turmoil in the Gaza strip these days, Hamas is sending rockets towards an israeli army post near Rafah in retaliation for the shooting death Monday of a schoolgirl in her schoolyard. As usual in Palestine, if something bad happens, it must be the jews.
   There is, however, a heated argument about who shot the bullet. According to the CBC (link below), the closest IDF watchtower is 650 m away, the closest road patrolled by the Israelis 700 m away. Yet, the bullet still had plenty of velocity: the doctor who examined the girl said "the fatal bullet entered near the girl's nose and exited through the back of the head." My question: can regular ammunition kill at 700 m?
   Thanks in advance,
Joaquim R, a concerned civilian

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050201/w020138.html

 

[MikeM]

Well, that depends on what you mean by regular ammunition.

A 5.56 mm round from a service weapon is only effective up to 400m from the target. I believe the IDF uses M16 or similar, so I would say that a 700m shot would be hard to hit. If they're using 7.62 ammunition, then they can get much farther distance, especially if it is from a sniper rifle or similar.

To make it quick, yes it is possible for "regular" ammunition to kill at 700m, depending on the weapon and shooter.

One of the resident SMEs may be able to provide more info.

Regards,

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Hello everyone,
   There is turmoil in the Gaza strip these days, Hamas is sending rockets towards an israeli army post near Rafah in retaliation for the shooting death Monday of a schoolgirl in her schoolyard. As usual in Palestine, if something bad happens, it must be the jews.
   There is, however, a heated argument about who shot the bullet. According to the CBC (link below), the closest IDF watchtower is 650 m away, the closest road patrolled by the Israelis 700 m away. Yet, the bullet still had plenty of velocity: the doctor who examined the girl said "the fatal bullet entered near the girl's nose and exited through the back of the head." My question: can regular ammunition kill at 700 m?
   Thanks in advance,
Joaquim R, a concerned civilian

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050201/w020138.html

I wouldn't underestimate the willingness of the Palestinians (whether it be Hamas or Fatah) to kill one their own in order to ensure the population is looking outward for someone to blame rather than inward because if they do start looking inward, they're not going to like what they see....



Matthew.    

 

[pbi]

How do they know the Israels fired it? And, if they did, where they fired it from? The road and tower locations are irrelevant if that's not where the shooter was. If it was a sniper, using match ammo, the shot could have been from much further than 700m. There isn't really enough info to judge who did it.

Cheers

 

[Crazy_Eyes]

match ammo? what is that?

 

[48Highlander]

Match ammo is designed for greater accuracy.

PBI, as far as I know the Palestinians on the scene were accusing the IDF soldiers at the outpost of having fired the shot.  Ofcourse, if you follow the story, they first claimed that she was shot by a tank   Then one the evidence proved otherwise, they changed the story.  The IDF for their part admits firing rounds that day, but not in that direction, and not at that time.  They also claim that there was a Palestinian celebration earlier with bullets being fired in the air.  The Palsetinians deny that any such celebration took place.

 

[pbi]

The arguing and denying will go on, no doubt. Meanwhile, the child is dead.

"Match" ammo, as 48 stated, is produced under stricter quality controls than normal service ball ammo, and in much smaller quantities. I believe the main difference is the amount and quality of the propellant grains. The name comes (IIRC) from its use in shooting matches. It is used by snipers as well as by military competitive shooters. Most of what we use in Canada is made by IVI.

Cheers

 

[Tpr.Orange]

Hello everyone,
   There is turmoil in the Gaza strip these days, Hamas is sending rockets towards an israeli army post near Rafah in retaliation for the shooting death Monday of a schoolgirl in her schoolyard. As usual in Palestine, if something bad happens, it must be the jews.
   There is, however, a heated argument about who shot the bullet. According to the CBC (link below), the closest IDF watchtower is 650 m away, the closest road patrolled by the Israelis 700 m away. Yet, the bullet still had plenty of velocity: the doctor who examined the girl said "the fatal bullet entered near the girl's nose and exited through the back of the head." My question: can regular ammunition kill at 700 m?
   Thanks in advance,
Joaquim R, a concerned civilian

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050201/w020138.html

Im a little confused here... you said as usual in Palestine,   

If you wouldn't mind could you show me Palestine on the map? to my knowledge there is no country called Palestine. It must be the jews? ... also Im not to happy about this statement... Try it must be the IDF or the Israelis.

 

[Kirkhill]

I am a bit concerned about where this thread might lead.

The question asked seems to have been is a 700m shot with a rifle possible.  The answer is yes.

It seems the question has been asked and answered.

Does it serve anything to keep this thread open?

 

[joaquim]

I am a bit concerned about where this thread might lead.

Does it serve anything to keep this thread open?

My intention was not to start a debate on the Israeli-Palestinian war (or the existence of a country called Palestine, you guys are going too far!). I needed expert opinion on the question of the 700m distance and the residual velocity of regular ammunition at that distance. I thought a regular M16 bullet did not have enought energy left after this distance to go right through a skull. By regular ammo, I mean this was no sharpshooting competition!

I hope you understand that public opinion is tainted, especially in the Middle-East, by the personal opinions of ONG and military personel. It is difficult for a non-expert to judge these reports critically. Technical information, for example about weapons, is hard to get. Hence my posting in your forum, my only access to professional soldiers. Thanks again for the info,

Joaquim R, a concerned civilian

 

[48Highlander]

Using an M-16, fired by an average shooter, with regular ammo, it would have been a miracle to hit a small target (yes, I know it sounds cold to describe a child that way, but what can ya do...) at 700 meters.  Especially on the first shot.

As is usual with news about the palestinian/israeli conflicts, there's almost zero accurate information about this incident.  Some reports put the school as being 500 meters away from the checkpoint, others put it as far out as 900 meters.  Some reports claim multiple shopts were fired, and that there was a second victim, other repots claim only one bullet and one victim.  None of the reports provide any sort of forensic info, such as the typeor caliber of round fired, ammount of penetration, probable trajectory, etc.  So to answer your question, an M-16 round fired at 700 meters would have enough power to penetrate a human skull.  However, your question is rather pointless if you're trying to deduce anything about the event being discussed.

 

[Tpr.Orange]

My intention was not to start a debate on the Israeli-Palestinian war (or the existence of a country called Palestine, you guys are going too far!).

Excuse me for going to far, but maybe by being politically correct, and modifying what you said in your first post you might not offend others, or spark the israel/palestinian debate.

 

[dutchie]

Excuse me for going to far, but maybe by being politically correct, and modifying what you said in your first post you might not offend others, or spark the israel/palestinian debate.

You expect to get somewhere accusing someone of not being politically correct? Get a grip. You're the one who brought up the issue of 'Palestine'...his choice of words has slipped quietly under the radar until you piped up.

If anyone here has offended others or sparked the Israeli/Palestinian debate, it's you.

 

[Big Bad John]

Gentlemen, Ease Up!

 

[winchable]

2 Problems
1; Discussing the death of an innocent child, especially a young girl, in such a cold manner is not only inappropriate but nearing sick and I highly doubt we'd be doing it with such institutional coldness if it were to happen in Canada or if, god forbid, it were one of our children, so why discuss it with regards to other peoples children?

2; The Palestine/Israel debate is somewhat unofficially off-limits on this board because it's just one of "those" topics, if you've ever been involved in one, you know why.

I'm not going to lock the thread because we're adults and this isn't the cadet forum so I'm not going to treat any of you as such and I expect everyone to take the honourable route and just drop it now before we open up a festering wound.

 

[Tpr.Orange]

You expect to get somewhere accusing someone of not being politically correct? Get a grip. You're the one who brought up the issue of 'Palestine'...his choice of words has slipped quietly under the radar until you piped up.

If anyone here has offended others or sparked the Israeli/Palestinian debate, it's you.

I dont know about you, but when i look on a map, I dont see Palestine... do you?

other then yourself i see nobody complaining about the comment i made all. Maybe the comments posted should be based off of some facts thats all im saying.

 

[Infanteer]

I'm going to lock it because the original question has been answered.

If there is some new point/issue/argument to be made about the Middle Ease, the politics forum is available for you to articulate yourself.

 

[winchable]

And the honour system falls on its face again, can't imagine why  :