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Petitioning Minister of National Defence to fix the injustice induced by the CF.

George Wallace

Army.ca Dinosaur
Reaction score
223
Points
710
This is a very serious matter and has just arisen on this site.  The posts have been removed due to their nature.  This reply should be kept in mind by all members of this site:

SeaKingTacco said:
Uneke125-

I will draw your attention to QR&O 19.10. No member of the CF may combine with other members of the CF to sign petitions on any matter concerning the CF.

What you are asking serving members to do is against the law.

 
It is, obviously, not against the law for civilians to sign a petition. If you read QR&19.10, the implication is that serving members can sign petitions. Just not those involving the CF. FJAG can probably do better than me.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
It is, obviously, not against the law for civilians to sign a petition. If you read QR&19.10, the implication is that serving members can sign petitions. Just not those involving the CF. FJAG can probably do better than me.

I am no debating what you have stated.  Simply asking why it was removed ?  This forum is not in anyway an official CAF forum or any other such media outlet governed by the QR&Os, DAODs, CFAOs ect.  So why was it removed ?  CAF members should know their arcs.
 
Halifax Tar said:
......  CAF members should know their arcs.

Yes, they should.  Often there are a few who forget those arcs. 

Civilians can sign all the petitions they want; but is it proper to post such a request on a CAF oriented site? 
 
George Wallace said:
Yes, they should.  Often there are a few who forget those arcs. 

Civilians can sign all the petitions they want; but is it proper to post such a request on a CAF oriented site?

Let the CAF worry about those who forget their arcs.  There are a significant number of retired military here; is it proper to censor information that might be pertinent to them because someone who is still serving might not be aware of QR&O 19.10?  You know what they say...ignorance of the law is no excuse.
 
George Wallace said:
Yes, they should.  Often there are a few who forget those arcs. 

Civilians can sign all the petitions they want; but is it proper to post such a request on a CAF oriented site?

A CAF oriented site with a CAF oriented topic.  I don't see the issue.  If a member doesn't know their orders on this matter, and breaks them, then they pay the consequences.  That doesn't mean we should "censor" topics, does it ?

 
It is also a privately owned site. Ultimately, the owner is responsible for the posted content. The topics are at his discretion.
 
I posted it and I am a civilian. Therefore, I am not breaking any laws.  I am trying to fight for our soldiers. The government needs to treat every member of the Canadian Forces (Class A,B or C.) The CF reservists make up for 60% of the military and are the backbone.
 
uneke125 said:
I posted it and I am a civilian. Therefore, I am not breaking any laws.  I am trying to fight for our soldiers. The government needs to treat every member of the Canadian Forces (Class A,B or C.) The CF reservists make up for 60% of the military and are the backbone.

You should probably have remained quiet.  Your last stated "fact" is about to get flamed.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
It is also a privately owned site. Ultimately, the owner is responsible for the posted content. The topics are at his discretion.

Agreed, but there's no inherent harm or risk to the site owner by allowing a link to a petition.  The onus is on the CAF member to know what they can and cannot do in accordance with CAF regulations.
 
SeaKingTacco said:
It is also a privately owned site. Ultimately, the owner is responsible for the posted content. The topics are at his discretion.

Well there goes any honest and open discussion. 
 
Occam said:
Agreed, but there's no inherent harm or risk to the site owner by allowing a link to a petition.  The onus is on the CAF member to know what they can and cannot do in accordance with CAF regulations.

+1  Milpoints inbound!
 
Halifax Tar said:
...If a member doesn't know their orders on this matter, and breaks them, then they pay the consequences.  That doesn't mean we should "censor" topics, does it ?

You would hope, but in the past the owner has been the subject of legal action because of posts made by the membership, who did not know their arcs, and broke them, but did not have to pay the consequences (time, angst and money) - the owner did.

I can't really fault him, or the mods who support him, for wanting to avoid that.  Once bitten, twice shy and all that.

 
Halifax Tar said:
Well there goes any honest and open discussion.

Actually: NO

I removed the original two topics posted by uneke125 (Yes; there were more than One (1) topic linking the petition posted by uneke125.) for further discussion amongst the Mods.  As this is not RABBLE.CA, we do have mods who attempt to keep the site out of any forms of improprieties leading to legal action.  I felt that those posts may have been inappropriate for this site, and moved them to a location where the mods are discussing the matter.  If there is a consensus, then the appropriate topic will be returned and this once can be deleted.  Far from total censorship as some are alluding to.
 
George Wallace said:
  Far from total censorship as some are alluding to.

When I want to be totally censored I hang around the CBC website and let their mods muzzle me.  Here, it's not so bad...
 
Lets be clear, the original post was not asking for a discussion.  It was, in fact, a soliciation.

If the OP wanted to have a discussion, they would have asked whether we thought it was right/wrong.  They did not do that, they posted a statement, without any source backing it up and then asked us to sign a petition.  Doesn't seem like they really wanted to have a discussion if you ask me  :dunno:

George is well within his arcs to have deleted this post IMO.
 
uneke125 said:
I posted it and I am a civilian. Therefore, I am not breaking any laws.  I am trying to fight for our soldiers. The government needs to treat every member of the Canadian Forces (Class A,B or C.) The CF reservists make up for 60% of the military and are the backbone.

Because you are a civilian you are not aware of our regs, orders and policies we are bound to follow or face administrative and/or disciplinary actions.  Most CAF members need to invest significant amounts of time to understand them and SME advice on their meaning and application. 

We have the NDA, QR & Os, CFAOs, DAODs, Command/Base/Wing/unit level orders...to name some of them.


We also have various informal and formal processes for members to seek resolution for issues covering a broad spectrum of topics.  There are also policies in place for how a mbr must use those processes, else they face admin and/or disciplinary actions.  One example is the link below to DAOD 5047-1.  Please note the "Application", "Failure to Comply" as well as "Existing Mechanisms" sections.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5047-1.page

As for your last sentence,  I think anyone who takes issue with it need only read your first sentence to understand where you are coming from. 

:2c:

 
Okay I'll take a stab at this.

As most of you know I'm a retired lawyer and retired reserve legal officer. During my time with JAG I never dealt with this issue so I give the following caveat; what I say below is neither a JAG position, nor a legal opinion but simply my own personal take on the matter.

Section 2 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms provides that:

"2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association."

QR&O 19.10 provides:

"19.10 - COMBINATIONS FORBIDDEN
No officer or non-commissioned member shall without authority:

combine with other members for the purpose of bringing about alterations in existing regulations for the Canadian Forces;
sign with other members memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces; or
obtain or solicit signatures for memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces."

DAOD 5407-1 provides in part that:

"Right to Complain

12. Any of the following persons may bring a complaint to the Ombudsman, directly and free of charge, where the matter complained about relates directly to DND or the CF

(a) a member or former member;

(b) a member or former member of the Cadets;

(c) an employee or former employee;

(d) an employee or former employee of the Staff of Non-Public Funds, CF;

(e) a person who applies to become a member;

(f) a member of the immediate family of a person referred to in paragraphs (a) to (e); or

(g) a person who, pursuant to law or pursuant to an agreement between Canada and the state in whose armed forces the person is serving, attached or seconded as an officer or non-commissioned member to the CF."

In addition under s 29(1) of the NDA and s 7 of the QR&Os a member has the right to submit a Redress where the member has been aggrieved.

Fundamentally a member's right to bring forward an injustice is through an individual complaint to the ombudsman or by way of a grievance.

QR&O 19.10 does not restrict the right to complain other than in doing so together in a joint process with other serving members. It's a kinder and gentler brother to s 80 of the NDA, Mutiny without Violence.

Mutiny is defined in s 2 of the NDA as "“mutiny” means collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons in the resistance of lawful authority in any of Her Majesty’s Forces or in any forces cooperating therewith"

The key characteristic of mutiny and QR&O 19.10 is prohibiting actions by two or more members acting together in an unauthorized way or for an unauthorized purpose.

On its surface, QR&O 19.10 violates the provisions of ss 2(b) and (d) of the Charter and in my humble civilian opinion a strong arguable case can be made for the fact that it does and that therefore it should be of no force and effect.

That said, do I think individual, serving members should sign petitions etc advocating change within the CF? -- HELL NO!! -- QR&O 19.10 is a valid, lawful order until a court says otherwise.

I've long been a believer that unless you specifically want to test the system and are prepared to go through a long and arduous process that may cost you money or your career and that you may lose in the end, you should not challenge existing regulations and orders. That may sound like a coward's way out but in my mind when there are options which you can use which do not put you at risk then you should use those.

Nothing prevents each and every serving member to individually file a complaint with the Ombudsman. Here for example you could make two complaints - one against QR&O 19.10 and its prohibition on petitions and one on the actual issue that the petition was in favour of. I'm quite sure that if several serving members filed individual complaints then they would be administratively aggregated into one investigation within the Ombudsman's office in any event.

If the administrators of this site are serving members then I think they need to be cautious about how they manage things so that it cannot be said that they did not "obtain or solicit signatures for memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces". Whether you wish to instil a blanket policy against facilitating links to petitions or simply issuing warnings to members about the provisions of QR&O 19.10 is up to you. In the end it's a question of how much risk you wish to assume.

Once again. This is not a legal opinion but merely my own humble non-legal opinion.

:cheers:
 
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