Physical Fitness (Jogging, Diet, Cardiovascular, and Strength )

[Mcfro]

Again, with no time in by your own admission, how do you presume to know, that musclar endurance would be preferable?  There are plenty of jobs in the CF where having a solid strength base is more beneficial than one's ability to crank out 50+ push ups.

I browse the site and read anecdotes of members.
Also, I am genuinely curious, I would like for you to name at least 5 jobs in which a super strength base is more useful than muscular endurance (which, by the way, you seem to think I'm implying one cannot have both).

If you are some how "missing" something by doing heavy compound lifts, then you either a) aren't lifting heavy enough, b) not doing them properly, c) both.

Sure, tell me how those squats are working your calves.
Tell me how that barbell row is working your biceps to capacity.
Tell me how that deadlift is working your lower back (hint: it shouldn't be worked to the extent of calling it a workout for that purpose).

The term "compound" doesn't equate to every muscle involved being worked equally. The things I suggested are there to complement the main lifts, not to replace. They are also there to work the muscles not being worked at all.

Ah I get it you goals and routines are focused on aesthetics vs actual performance.  Again, with no time in, I can see how you would favour aesthetics. About the only good thing you mentioned was doing pull ups, but not because they are good for lat development.  Because, when done properly are in the same class as the compound lifts, they work multiple muscle groups and require co-ordination between those muscle groups, thus benefiting overall CNS development.

I, too, enjoy making baseless assumptions. Heh, wait, I don't.

Aesthetics are on my list, but far, far down the list. I deal with my aesthetics by managing my nutrition properly, not modifying my workout.

As for the pull-ups, the main muscle they work is the lats. The fact that it's a compound exercise was implied, and you're being pedantic by pointing out the obvious benefits.

As for the rationale of "exhausting" tiny muscles like tricep, what's the logic and rationale, other than you read it in a magazine somewhere.

Tiny muscles? You call something that makes two thirds of you upper arms a "tiny muscle"? Damn fella...

As for the logic behind exhausting them with dips (oh, look, another compound exercise!), dips allow the triceps to work the entire range of motion, using body weight as resistance. Working the entire range of motion allows for the fibers that aren't stressed during overhead presses and bench presses to get stressed, repair, and grow.  I chose to single out triceps since I've read they make you do a ton of them in BMQ, and proper military pushups place more stress on the triceps than the pectorals.

If your triceps are fine, or the posts I read were gross exaggeration, by all means, skip dips (not that I would).

Again, your training whether you want to admit it or not, is not performance based.  It's also not suitable for a novice.  There is a reason many coaches/authors etc from Mark Rippetoe, Louie Simmons, Dante Trudell, Jim Wendler, Dave Tate, and heck even Arnold, have novices doing basically only heavy compound lifts for the first 2-3 years.  It works.  Again if you aren't suitably wiped from a simple program like stronglifts 5x5 or Wendlers 5/3/1 you aren't going heavy enough and/or doing the lifts properly.  ALL of the compound lifts will tax your entire body if you do them correctly, with heavy weight.  All of the aforementioned will only advocate using accessory movements such as curls, extensions etc, to shore up any weakness that is holding you back in the main compound lift.

To start, I train only for performance. I don't train to "bulk up" like a balloon animal, nor do I train for the beach. I train for myself.
On that note, why would you list a bunch of balloon animal bodybuilders? There's a reason their bodies look the way they do; they train much differently than someone like Obi Obadike. They train specifically for hypertrophy, as opposed to strength/endurance (obviously there's a strong correlation, but I digress).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with accessory movements, for the record. Were you to say isolation exercises or machine exercises, I might be strongly inclined to agree with you.

we call it staying in your lane around here.

This, fortunately, is my lane, which is why I don't post on other topics; I only read the other topics.

But hey, thanks for the pep talk, champ.

 

[Jarnhamar]

What's wrong with bulking up? You make a bigger target and soak up damage for your brothers behind you.  you don't like protecting your team mates?

 

[ballz]

Blah blah blah

But hey, thanks for the pep talk, champ.

Wow, you've got lots to learn. Luckily your head is big enough that it should all be able to fit in there.

Enjoy doing your bicep curls, they'll be a big help when you're getting jacked up for being an @$$ clown.

 

[Mcfro]

Wow, you've got lots to learn. Luckily your head is big enough that it should all be able to fit in there.

Enjoy doing your bicep curls, they'll be a big help when you're getting jacked up for being an @$$ clown.

If you don't want to do biceps and mess your elbows up with a muscle imbalance later on, by all means, by my guest.

Speaking of, do you actually have anything *else to contribute to the topic or are you just here to "ride the newbie" as well? 

 

[AgentSmith]

If you don't want to do biceps and mess your elbows up with a muscle imbalance later on, by all means, by my guest.

Speaking of, do you actually have anything *else to contribute to the topic or are you just here to "ride the newbie" as well? 

Bicep curls do nothing in the grand scheme of things as the bicep is such a small muscle. I don't see why people are so fascinated by it. No one cares how big your arms are or how much you curl. They care about how much you can run and ruck. In my opinion, training purely for looks is pointless. If you put the effort in and train for performance, the good looks will follow

It's also very important to include stuff like running (which you will do a lot of in BMQ and throughout your career)

Strength and cardio are both important, bodybuilding routines are not. I'd recommend either a proven strength program (GSLP, 5/3/1 or whatever strength program you fancy) with running/sprinting/a few short metcons mixed in, or Crossfit Endurance.

 

[The_Falcon]

Also, I am genuinely curious, I would like for you to name at least 5 jobs in which a super strength base is more useful than muscular endurance (which, by the way, you seem to think I'm implying one cannot have both).

Super Strength base? I am not talking about getting to the point of being a geared up powerlifter pulling 1000lbs off the ground.  But for the Average person 2x-3x BW is not out of the question, and certainly not difficult, if a person is motivated.  I am 195lbs, my best deadlift so far is 430 (haven't gone for  max attempt in awhile), I am currently on pace to hit a 405lbs squat in 2 weeks, and hopefully 500lbs by the summer.

To paraphrase Mark Rippetoe, Stronger people are harder to kill, and generally more useful.

My position has always been that if you are in an army trade or a purple trade that works with the army, then you should be as strong as you possibly can be (I actually think this applies to everyone in the world, but I will settle for army+purples) .  But if want actual specifics, from my own observations:

1) Artillery, specifcally anyone assigned to work on/around the M777, nothing about that gun is light.
2) Armoured crewman, very few things about armoured vehicles such as Coyotes, Leopards, and LAVs could be called "light"
3) Combat Engineer, hauling around demo equipment, and bridge pieces seems to be a very bad idea for the pencil thin, brook trout shoulder types.
4) Light Infantry.  Whoever came up with that term had a twisted sense of humour, as very little about life as light infantry is "light", especially for the poor SOBs assigned to handle support weapons. 
5) Traffic Techs.  The guys I have met in this trade that don't have issues with all the physical labour involved, are not what one would describe as small/weak people.  Something about loading/unloading pallets of heavy equipment/kit day in day out.....

I can come up with plenty of other examples but I think you get the point.

Sure, tell me how those squats are working your calves. [
Tell me how that barbell row is working your biceps to capacity.
Tell me how that deadlift is working your lower back (hint: it shouldn't be worked to the extent of calling it a workout for that purpose)

Perhaps you should actually read some books on anatomy or take a class/course or two, or just lift heavier.

The Gastrocnenius and Soleus are responsible for flexion/extension of the ankle joint.  Both of which occur in squats (or should occur, lack of ankle mobility is a major reason most people don't break parallel when performing squats).  I invite you try doing a full depth *** to grass squat (no weight), with out letting your heels come off the ground (hint doing this bare foot is preferable). If you are like most  people used to a western lifestyle, you will start to feel a pulling sensation in your calves as you get closer to breaking the horizontal plane vis a vi your hip and knee joints, and you most likely lose your balance as your heels rise to compensate for their lack of mobility.

The biceps brachii are responsible for flexion of the elbow joint, which occurs in rowing movements such as the barbell row and pull up.  Again if the particular muscle isn't being taxed to one's satisfaction then  either a) ADD MORE WEIGHT , b) use a supinated grip, c) a and b.

The "low back" muscles which include the erector spinae, longissimus thorasis, and external obliques work in conjuction with the rectus abdominus, tranverse abdominus, internal obliques and a few other muscles to form what people think of as the "core "  (although most only actually work the muscle on the anterior plane, because that's where your abz are bro).  All the muscles work in strong isometric contraction (or should be if your doing things correctly) to stablize your torso/midline when it is under load (which means this is also the case when it comes to squats and the press).  If you are so ignorant as to think that pulling 300, 400, 500+ pounds off of the ground isn't putting incredible strain on all those muscles as they fight to maintain proper spinal alignment then you are a moron plain and simple and should refrain from dispensing advice to people, and go back to the misc board of bodybuilding.com. 

The term "compound" doesn't equate to every muscle involved being worked equally. The things I suggested are there to complement the main lifts, not to replace. They are also there to work the muscles not being worked at all.

No "compound" in the usual sense means multi-joint, multi muscle group.  Never said anything about equality.  What I said was novices really have no business wasting their time with accessory lifting. I already mentioned when accessory lifting is used, but I will say it again for sake of clarity.  WEAK POINT training.  Until you have been lifting 2-3 years, and have at least a 2x BW squat and deadlift and 1.5x BW bench, and 1xBW Press (and some people would probably argue for higher numbers) you are still a novice, and your weak point training should be focused on the main lifts until you get those numbers.   

I, too, enjoy making baseless assumptions. Heh, wait, I don't.

I haven't made any assumptions.  I actually know what I am talking about.  I spent 12 years in the CF in the Infantry (Reserve), gone on numerous courses and training ex's, tour, and tried out for a few high speed things.  I know from my own personal experience and observations what works for the military and what does not.  Surprisingly the people who take a more holistic approach to their training vs the BB approach (or alternatively the marathoner approach) are the people who don't get crushed.  I have also WORKED as a professional trainer, taken various courses and seminars, have a stack of books on various subjects, such as powerlifting, olympic lifting, kettlebell training, bodyweight (gymnastics training), general barbell training.  And I continually read various articles published by the people I listed in my prior post. 

As I have pointed out TWICE now, YOU have made some rather stupid assumptions, and shown a general lack of knowledge that unfortunately is quite common among a large portion of people. 

Aesthetics are on my list, but far, far down the list. I deal with my aesthetics by managing my nutrition properly, not modifying my workout.

If you say so.

As for the pull-ups, the main muscle they work is the lats. The fact that it's a compound exercise was implied, and you're being pedantic by pointing out the obvious benefits.

  Yeah they don't work anything else to any "real" extent at all  :  All those high level gymnasts out there with shoulders and arms the size of bowling balls and grip strength that could crush a brick, must spend all their time doing curls, and lateral dumbbell raises.  Oh wait they DON'T, they spend all their time doing a lot of movements that look like mutiple variations of PULLUPS (in addition to pressing type/and isometric hold stuff as well). 

Tiny muscles? You call something that makes two thirds of you upper arms a "tiny muscle"? Damn fella...

  Compared to the hamstrings, quads, lats, calves and pecs, your biceps and tricps are compartively small muscles, and the natural hormone response elicited by training them individually (and thus their ability to get stronger) is negligible.  All that said, given that covers of most bodybuilding mags usually feature someone who is taking so many drugs, they can open their own pharmacy, and that commercial gyms are filled with guys like this

I can undertand why you and many others seem to think that your biceps/triceps are major muscles deserving a lot of individual attention.

As for the logic behind exhausting them with dips (oh, look, another compound exercise!), dips allow the triceps to work the entire range of motion, using body weight as resistance. Working the entire range of motion allows for the fibers that aren't stressed during overhead presses and bench presses to get stressed, repair, and grow.  I chose to single out triceps since I've read they make you do a ton of them in BMQ, and proper military pushups place more stress on the triceps than the pectorals.

See you explained why dips are beneficial, still haven't explained why "exhausting" them is a good idea.  I know the "exhaustion/burnout" principle is mentioned in many BB routines, but outside of that context, you won't really find it as part of a legitimate strength training routines for a variety of reasons.  The high stress it places on the CNS, and it's ability to subsequently recover for  one.  The VERY high risk of injury (tendon/ligament tears and strains) for another reason.  Also in regards to "military" push ups.  The CF (well when PSP is monitoring your pushups) pushup is more in line with proper body mechanics.  It's doesn't place any special emphasis on the triceps.  It is actually pretty balanced in terms of working the deltoids, pecs and triceps.  The issue is most people are used to pushups with such a wide hand position that their pecs/deltoids do the brunt of the work, and when they start doing proper pushups, their triceps need to play catch up for a while, but with consistent training the catch up period shouldn't last more than a few weeks.

To start, I train only for performance. I don't train to "bulk up" like a balloon animal, nor do I train for the beach. I train for myself.

If you say so.

On that note, why would you list a bunch of balloon animal bodybuilders? There's a reason their bodies look the way they do; they train much differently than someone like Obi Obadike. They train specifically for hypertrophy, as opposed to strength/endurance (obviously there's a strong correlation, but I digress).

Um  your ignorance is showing, aside from Arnold, none of the people that I mentioned are bodybuilders.  They have all been involved in powerlifting, and general strength training/coaching, in some cases for decades.  They certainly know more than I do on the subject of strength training, and they DEFINATELY know more than YOU and other bro's as well.  They are what most people consider EXPERTS.  But referencing Arnold, if you had actually read his book "Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding", which is quite obvious you haven't, you would realize 1) early in his career he competed as a powerlifter as well as an amateur bodybuilder (in fact powerlifting events were a regular staple of early body building contests, as many bodybuilders up until the 50s/60s were also strongmen and powerlifters).  2) as I said before he quite clearly states in his book, novices should stick to simple routines, consisting of compound lifting for the first couple of years. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with accessory movements, for the record. Were you to say isolation exercises or machine exercises, I might be strongly inclined to agree with you.

Umm????  In what world is focusing on individual muscles not isolation? Your logic is fail. You can call a bicep curl, an accessory lift, or a standing calf raise an accessory lift, but your are still performing an isolation execercise, as you are only working 1 muscle group and 1  joint.  And I have already explained numerous times why such work is really of no substantial benefit (beyond ego boosting, and well everyone else does it), to novices.  This is not just my opinion, this is the opinion of practically every knowledgeable strength coach out there, distilled over decades of training people from rank novices to pro athletes.

This, fortunately, is my lane, which is why I don't post on other topics; I only read the other topics.

You are most certainly not in your lane as you have continually demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of basic anatomy, body mechanics, and training principles.  Not to mention a general lack of basic research skills (Louie Simmons and Jim Wendler are bodybuilders?  I am sure they would find that amusing).  If you are in the Toronto area, Sheridan College has a fantastic con-ed program called "Human Performance Training", you could possibly learn a thing or two.  Doubtful, but there may be hope for you yet.  Otherwise stick to misc.

Edit to fix some errors and to add these links for anyone interested (since they are free, but if you really want to know more, Starting Strength, and Practical Programming are excellent books on the basics of strength training, program design, and body mechanics in relation to strength training). 

Deadlift
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/ssbbt3_pulling_mechanics#.USin46Vgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/ssbbt3_pulling_mechanics_2#.USin6aVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/deadlifts_arent_just_for_powerlifters#.USioLaVgd8E

Press
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/ssbbt3_learning_to_press#.USin86Vgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_olympic-style_press#.USioGqVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_quest_for_a_stronger_overhead_press#.USioHaVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/the_tragic_death_of_the_military_press


"ABZ/Core"
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/core_stability_training#.USioEqVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/abs#.USioAqVgd8E

Squat/Hip Movement
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/active_hip_2#.USioBKVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_squat_or#.USioHaVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/full_squats_or_not#.USioL6Vgd8E

General Strength Training Topics
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/you_must_understand_the_gravity_of_your_situation#.USin-qVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_blind_lead_the_willing#.USin_6Vgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_novice_effect#.USioC6Vgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/keeping_strength_in_the_strength_program#.USioFqVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/dont_overlook_the_middle#.USioKaVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/barbell_training_is_big_medicine
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/strength_fitness#.USioPKVgd8E

Army Strength Training
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/why_does_the_army_want_me_weak#.USioRaVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/a_strength_based_approach_to_the_apft#.USioSqVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/combat_worst_case_scenario#.USioUaVgd8E
http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/is_it_training_or_exercise#.USioVaVgd8E

 

[Mcfro]

I can come up with plenty of other examples but I think you get the point.

Oh, I get the point alright. You seem to have grossly misinterpreted what I was suggesting much earlier.

With what I was suggesting, someone would be able to carry those heavy loads for much longer. The downside would be that it would take them longer to achieve said strength level. What you were suggesting was someone reach the strength to be able to carry those loads as fast as possible, the obvious downside being they lack the endurance.

I never once advocated some "stay-thin marathoner" deal. I merely advocated 12 reps versus 5, which appears to have really rustled your jimmies.

The Gastrocnenius and Soleus are responsible for flexion/extension of the ankle joint.  Both of which occur in squats (or should occur, lack of ankle mobility is a major reason most people don't break parallel when performing squats).  I invite you try doing a full depth *** to grass squat (no weight), with out letting your heels come off the ground (hint doing this bare foot is preferable). If you are like most  people used to a western lifestyle, you will start to feel a pulling sensation in your calves as you get closer to breaking the horizontal plane vis a vi your hip and knee joints, and you most likely lose your balance as your heels rise to compensate for their lack of mobility.

Again, you misinterpreted what I said. Perhaps reading isn't necessarily your strong point.

The gastrocs are certainly and obviously involved in the squats. They're also involved in running, walking, and just about anything that makes you move your legs. Do any of those give them a proper workout? No. The gastrocs benefit far more from lower weight, higher rep (ergo calf raises), than high weight, low rep work.

Also, for squats, you should be pushing through your heels, not your toes. Basic stuff.

The biceps brachii are responsible for flexion of the elbow joint, which occurs in rowing movements such as the barbell row and pull up.  Again if the particular muscle isn't being taxed to one's satisfaction then  either a) ADD MORE WEIGHT , b) use a supinated grip, c) a and b.

Again, the biceps are involved in the row and pull-up, but are NOT the primary force involved. If you're taxing your biceps doing a row or a pull-up, you are lifting with abysmal form.

The "low back" muscles which include the erector spinae, longissimus thorasis, and external obliques work in conjuction with the rectus abdominus, tranverse abdominus, internal obliques and a few other muscles to form what people think of as the "core "  (although most only actually work the muscle on the anterior plane, because that's where your abz are bro).  All the muscles work in strong isometric contraction (or should be if your doing things correctly) to stablize your torso/midline when it is under load (which means this is also the case when it comes to squats and the press).  If you are so ignorant as to think that pulling 300, 400, 500+ pounds off of the ground isn't putting incredible strain on all those muscles as they fight to maintain proper spinal alignment then you are a moron plain and simple and should refrain from dispensing advice to people, and go back to the misc board of bodybuilding.com. 

There is no doubt in the world that you WILL feel deadlifts in your back & core; I never denied that. Once again, the muscles that compose the "abz bro" (you seem to know a lot more of this "bro" talk than I do. Funny.) are merely stabilizers, and once again, these particular stabilizers benefit much more from low weight, high rep work.

The back, of course, is being worked, and you can definitely feel it, but if it's actually straining you to the point where you feel it more in your back than your legs, you need to correct your form. Your shoulders and knees should be past the bar, not in line, so that your scapulae are directly over the bar. This lets your lats hold the brunt of the weight (as opposed to leaning a few degrees back and taxing your abdominals & erector spinae). The deadlift should be taxing your hamstrings and glutes.

In summary, fix your damned form.

No "compound" in the usual sense means multi-joint, multi muscle group.  Never said anything about equality.  What I said was novices really have no business wasting their time with accessory lifting. I already mentioned when accessory lifting is used, but I will say it again for sake of clarity.  WEAK POINT training.  Until you have been lifting 2-3 years, and have at least a 2x BW squat and deadlift and 1.5x BW bench, and 1xBW Press (and some people would probably argue for higher numbers) you are still a novice, and your weak point training should be focused on the main lifts until you get those numbers.   

com·ple·ment 
/ˈkämpləmənt/
Noun
A thing that completes or brings to perfection.
Verb
Add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it; make perfect.

Just in case you didn't understand the word.

As I have pointed out TWICE now, YOU have made some rather stupid assumptions, and shown a general lack of knowledge that unfortunately is quite common among a large portion of people. 

What assumptions have I made, exactly? I made inferences based off what I read on these boards, but I certainly never plucked anything out of the blue.
You, however, seem all too fond of the latter.

Yeah they don't work anything else to any "real" extent at all  :  All those high level gymnasts out there with shoulders and arms the size of bowling balls and grip strength that could crush a brick, must spend all their time doing curls, and lateral dumbbell raises.  Oh wait they DON'T, they spend all their time doing a lot of movements that look like mutiple variations of PULLUPS (in addition to pressing type/and isometric hold stuff as well). 

Dear lord, you are dense. I mention the main muscle, and you go on a tirade about the other muscles (which I already acknowledged).
Once again, you seem to think I'm suggesting doing curls and raises INSTEAD of the main exercises. Reading comprehension really must be your weak point. Here, let me post this again.
com·ple·ment 
/ˈkämpləmənt/
Noun
A thing that completes or brings to perfection.
Verb
Add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it; make perfect.

I can undertand why you and many others seem to think that your biceps/triceps are major muscles deserving a lot of individual attention.

Mmm, I love those baseless assumptions. Keep 'em coming.
Let's get a few things straight: I don't ogle bodybuilding magazines for hours, envying the greased up steroid-laden balloon animals on the cover. I don't aspire to be a balloon animal. I don't skip (or remotely neglect) my legs. I am not a "bro", nor am I a "miscer". I am not here to troll.

You're right on the triceps, though. The only muscle in the upper body capable of a pushing motion can't be important, right?
Right?

On the same note, are you actually arguing against dips? Because that's the only other exercise I suggested for triceps. If you're arguing against dips, you've honestly just lost every shred of credibility you might have had.

Biceps are admittedly less important, but still an important muscle. There's no reason NOT to train them.

I know the "exhaustion/burnout" principle is mentioned in many BB routines, but outside of that context, you won't really find it as part of a legitimate strength training routines for a variety of reasons.  The high stress it places on the CNS, and it's ability to subsequently recover for  one.  The VERY high risk of injury (tendon/ligament tears and strains) for another reason.

I suggested exhausting them mostly for the folks who are waiting to start BMQ (like I mentioned with the "tons of pushups" shpeel earlier). If that's true, amd they aren't up to par yet, they'll need all the endurance they can get. (Again, if it isn't true, disregard. I only know what I read on these boards.)

The risk of injury is much higher with a high strength, low rep routine than vice versa, for the record. The reasons should be fairly obvious.

  Also in regards to "military" push ups.  The CF (well when PSP is monitoring your pushups) pushup is more in line with proper body mechanics.  It's doesn't place any special emphasis on the triceps.

Hands under your shoulders, right next to your pecs, right? That right there places the majority of the stress on the triceps.

Um  your ignorance is showing, aside from Arnold, none of the people that I mentioned are bodybuilders. 

Aside from Louie Simmons, everyone you mentioned is a bodybuilder.

But referencing Arnold, if you had actually read his book "Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding", which is quite obvious you haven't, you would realize 1) early in his career he competed as a powerlifter as well as an amateur bodybuilder (in fact powerlifting events were a regular staple of early body building contests, as many bodybuilders up until the 50s/60s were also strongmen and powerlifters).  2) as I said before he quite clearly states in his book, novices should stick to simple routines, consisting of compound lifting for the first couple of years. 

Again, you're quoting a bodybuilder for a subject that isn't bodybuilding. We're not training for hypertrophy (well, by the looks of it, you seem interested).
On the same note, I never mentioned NOT sticking to compound lifting. I suggested a handful of complementary exercises.

Umm????  In what world is focusing on individual muscles not isolation?

A bicep curl employs the biceps, the shoulders, the lats, and the chest, as well as multiple stabilizers (since you're standing). This isn't isolation.
A calf raises employs the gastrocs, the soleus muscle, and the tibialis anterior, and works all of them well.

A tricep dumbell extension over the head would be isolation. Bicep curls on a preacher bench would be isolation. Quad curls on a machine would be isolation. Hamstring curls are isolation.

you have continually demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of basic anatomy, body mechanics, and training principles.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

You seem to know more about the "misc" junk and "bro" stuff than I do, maybe you can give me some pointers.  :

 

[The_Falcon]

With what I was suggesting, someone would be able to carry those heavy loads for much longer. The downside would be that it would take them longer to achieve said strength level. What you were suggesting was someone reach the strength to be able to carry those loads as fast as possible, the obvious downside being they lack the endurance.

And you know they would lack endurance based on what, your own assumptions and zero experience in the CF?

I never once advocated some "stay-thin marathoner" deal. I merely advocated 12 reps versus 5, which appears to have really rustled your jimmies.
Again, you misinterpreted what I said. Perhaps reading isn't necessarily your strong point.

 

12 reps, why 12?  You failed to explain and elaborate how doing 12 reps, vs 10 or 15 or 20 is beneficial for endurance.  The authors of the various programs mentioned take the time to explain the rationale for using their rep/set schemes.  Throwing an arbitrary number out, and declaring it "good for endurance" without anything to substantiate that claim is not beneficial to anyone. 


Now you got me all confused, here you are saying something that's actually correct

Also, for squats, you should be pushing through your heels, not your toes. Basic stuff.

And then you say something silly like this

The gastrocs are certainly and obviously involved in the squats. They're also involved in running, walking, and just about anything that makes you move your legs. Do any of those give them a proper workout? No. The gastrocs benefit far more from lower weight, higher rep (ergo calf raises), than high weight, low rep work.

If that statement were correct calf raises would be a staple of most programs.  Looking at my copies of starting strength, and 5/3/1, they are not.   

Again, the biceps are involved in the row and pull-up, but are NOT the primary force involved. If you're taxing your biceps doing a row or a pull-up, you are lifting with abysmal form.

What you actually asked was how rows/pull work your biceps  to capacity, and I told you, add weight, supinate your grip or both.

There is no doubt in the world that you WILL feel deadlifts in your back & core; I never denied that. Once again, the muscles that compose the "abz bro" (you seem to know a lot more of this "bro" talk than I do. Funny.) are merely stabilizers, and once again, these particular stabilizers benefit much more from low weight, high rep work.

Now that bolded part is funny, you obviously did not read of the articles I posted, and you obviously never lifted with a sufficiently heavy enough weight to actually tax your "core".  You even refer to them properly as stabilzers, yet you somehow can't grasp that, that making STABILZERS, do their damn job of STABILIZING your torso you when you put it under load, actually works them.  I am going to go out on a limb, and say you are one of the many people out there that equate feelings of muscle burn, soreness whatever, as a positive indicator of whether or not something is beneficial. 

The back, of course, is being worked, and you can definitely feel it, but if it's actually straining you to the point where you feel it more in your back than your legs, you need to correct your form. Your shoulders and knees should be past the bar, not in line, so that your scapulae are directly over the bar. This lets your lats hold the brunt of the weight (as opposed to leaning a few degrees back and taxing your abdominals & erector spinae). The deadlift should be taxing your hamstrings and glutes.

And then you go and say something smart again.

In summary, fix your damned form.

My form is fine, actually.  I perhaps used the wrong word, tension would be more appropriate than strain

com·ple·ment 
/ˈkämpləmənt/
Noun
A thing that completes or brings to perfection.
Verb
Add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it; make perfect.

Just in case you didn't understand the word.

I understand just fine.  What you don't seem to quite get, is NOVICES aren't at the point were adding in a whole bunch of supplementary, accessory, complimentary movements is going to be beneficial.  In fact I have repeatedly seen the opposite, instead of focusing on the compound lifts, people get bored start adding a whole bunch of other crap, burn out their CNS, and subsequently stall their progress on the big lifts.

What assumptions have I made, exactly? I made inferences based off what I read on these boards, but I certainly never plucked anything out of the blue.
You, however, seem all too fond of the latter.
Dear lord, you are dense. I mention the main muscle, and you go on a tirade about the other muscles (which I already acknowledged).
Once again, you seem to think I'm suggesting doing curls and raises INSTEAD of the main exercises. Reading comprehension really must be your weak point. Here, let me post this again.
com·ple·ment 
/ˈkämpləmənt/
Noun
A thing that completes or brings to perfection.
Verb
Add to (something) in a way that enhances or improves it; make perfect.
Mmm, I love those baseless assumptions. Keep 'em coming.

I already said what assumptions you have made, your very first post, where you mention I am not in the army but....you even do it above, you have read a bunch of posts of what may be a good idea, however you DO NOT have the actual experience in the CF to back up your ideas.  You are assuming to have knowledge and experience you admitted already you do not have.  And I am the dense one?

You're right on the triceps, though. The only muscle in the upper body capable of a pushing motion can't be important, right?
Right?

I don't even know what this is about, I am guessing the biceps/triceps are pretty small muscles comment.

On the same note, are you actually arguing against dips? Because that's the only other exercise I suggested for triceps. If you're arguing against dips, you've honestly just lost every shred of credibility you might have had.

And my reading comprehension is bad apparently  :  I think what I wrote was pretty clear, so I won't repeat myself. 

Biceps are admittedly less important, but still an important muscle. There's no reason NOT to train them.
I suggested exhausting them mostly for the folks who are waiting to start BMQ (like I mentioned with the "tons of pushups" shpeel earlier). If that's true, amd they aren't up to par yet, they'll need all the endurance they can get. (Again, if it isn't true, disregard. I only know what I read on these boards.)

And they will get all the work they require sticking with pullups and pull up variations. 

The risk of injury is much higher with a high strength, low rep routine than vice versa, for the record. The reasons should be fairly obvious.

Right and where exactly are you getting this dubious information?  So all the injuries that people get, that fall under the category of repetitive strain injuries, such as SLAP tears, elbow tendonitis etc. aren't caused by repetitive movements. 

Hands under your shoulders, right next to your pecs, right? That right there places the majority of the stress on the triceps.

Incorrect, hands directly under your sternum, places the majority of the stress on your triceps.  The hand positioning used by the CF (the US Military) for pushups allows for maximum generation of torque, through the triceps/deltoids/pec/lats.  Kelly Starrett has a few videos on mobilitywod.com, explaining/demonstrating this concept.  It's same concept that Louie Simmons and Westside Barbell use for their Bench Press technique. 

Aside from Louie Simmons, everyone you mentioned is a bodybuilder.
Again, you're quoting a bodybuilder for a subject that isn't bodybuilding. We're not training for hypertrophy (well, by the looks of it, you seem interested).

WOW, do you even know how to use google?

Jim Wendler is NOT a bodybuilder
Mark Rippetoe is not a bodybuilder
Arnold yes, but like I mentioned he was also a powerlifter as well.  Which I stated and you completely ignored.  Regardless, how does him being a bodybuilder, nullify his thoughts and opinions on training, specifically when referencing beginners since, his opinions pretty much match Wendler, Rip et al. Also I personally don't have an issue with legit bodybuilders (ie they make a living doing it), as they do possess quite a wealth of knowledge, and are still seriously strong mofo's.  That said, I (and many others with Military experience) take issue with anyone who thinks, that using BB style routines are effective for military purposes.  As well, most gym goers/bro are NOT bodybuilders, not even close.  Bodybuilding takes a helluva lot of personal drive, motivation, consistency, and sacrifice.  Something lacking in most "bros"

As for training for hypertrophy 1) Since when does being 195lbs qualify as training for hypertrophy?  2) I suggest you look up the difference between myofibular hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.  The latter being the kind that makes one big and swole, and also correlates to the rep range of 8-12 reps.  3)Training to put on some size would be beneficial in some cases.  if you only weigh 130lbs, and your carrying 60-75lbs pounds on a dismounted patrol in 50 degree heat, you are going to be in for a helluva a rough time. 4) What's this "We're not training for hypertrophy"? You are not in CF. Nor do you have prior experience in the CF.  So cut this "we" BS. 

On the same note, I never mentioned NOT sticking to compound lifting. I suggested a handful of complementary exercises.

And I have repeatedly pointed out (and this not something I pulled out of thin air), that it is not necessary for the novice.

A bicep curl employs the biceps, the shoulders, the lats, and the chest, as well as multiple stabilizers (since you're standing). This isn't isolation.
A calf raises employs the gastrocs, the soleus muscle, and the tibialis anterior, and works all of them well.
A tricep dumbell extension over the head would be isolation. Bicep curls on a preacher bench would be isolation. Quad curls on a machine would be isolation. Hamstring curls are isolation.

Now you are trying to apply your own definitions to suit your argument.

You seem to know more about the "misc" junk and "bro" stuff than I do, maybe you can give me some pointers.  :

It's simple really, 1) the bb.com forums come up in my google searches when I am looking up various topics, from time to time.  I will read them the odd time, to help me understand people's misconceptions, and lack of knowledge, so I can thoroughly explain concepts and movements to my clients in a way that doesn't leave them baffled. 2)  we would from time to time get the bro types showing up at the gym I worked at, they usually never lasted past the intro session, or were disappointed we had no mirrors. 3)my current gym is on a military base, and is basically a typical commercial gym, so I hear the bro talk constantly.

Edit to fix grammar/spelling. 

 

[Muscles And Brains]

Hire an experienced Kinesiologist! They are worth every penny. I went from barely being able to do 6 pushups and 1 pullup to increasing my muscle mass 30 lbs, reduce my fat 23 lbs in only 6 months. They know what they're talking about!

 

[JSoff]

Alright so as of February 1st the FORCE test will be in place, now my issue is with Cardio I can sprint at a decent speed but I run out of breath at a decent rate and I am a little worried at the 80meter rush, does anyone have advice on making it so I don't run out of breath as easy? The sandbag drag I am not very worried about because its essentially just using your bodies momentum.

And I have been strength training for a few months now, haven't really focused on my Cardio until recently.

 

[Arcset]

Hello all, I was wondering if someone could provide me with some feedback for getting better prepared for a possible military career.  My current schedule is below:

Monday: 5km run
Tuesday: Strength training
Wednesday: Interval training
Thursday: 5km run
Friday: Strength training
Saturday or Sunday: Hike

Strength training circuit (completed 3 times):
Pull ups
Push ups
Sit ups
Dumbbell curls
Squats
Tricep dips
Calf raises
Chin ups

Personal info:
Weight: 135lbs (yes I'm a toothpick, currently working on trying to increase my food intake)
Height: 5'10"
Application status: Waiting for medical and interview booking.  Heck, I might not get in at all because of medical.
Trade choices: Infantry, combat engineer, and armour crewman (all NCM)

This gives me two days of strength, two days of running, one day of intervals, and one day of hiking.  Monday and Thursday has me running 5km at the moment, however that's going to be increased by 500m every one or two weeks so that I'll be able to do 10km by the end of August (hopefully).  Tuesday and Friday involves completing my strength circuit 3 times each day, which mostly consist of calisthenics because of a lack of equipment I have (dumbbells with 30lbs of plates, pull up bar, and a home gym that I use for dips and squats).  Interval training and hiking were added to give myself some additional cardio and variation in the workout routine.

I'm not sure if I should be putting more of an emphasis on strength training or cardio.  I'm not saying that I'm strong or anything, but I'm capable of supporting my weight and then some (been backpacking in Alqonquin with a 30lb pack on a rather unpleasant trail for 12km, and loaded up a bag with 50lbs of weight and carried it around college just for fun).  On the other hand I feel like my cardio is severely lacking (even running as little as 5km is a bit of a challenge), and my understanding is that unless you keep pushing yourself you don't actually improve your cardio levels, hence why I'd be increasing the distance by 500m every week or two. 

I've been reading over information in this forum and have been making adjustments to my schedule, and will continue to do so as I find more info.  Any feedback or information anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks everyone.

 

[Emilio]

On the other hand I feel like my cardio is severely lacking (even running as little as 5km is a bit of a challenge), and my understanding is that unless you keep pushing yourself you don't actually improve your cardio levels, hence why I'd be increasing the distance by 500m every week or two.

I know what you mean, I run 2k before every workout and always feel the same level of fatigue afterwards. What I found helps is doing short high intensity cardio in-between workout days, and example being something like wind sprints but half the distance and no walking.   

 

[dankcco]

My training 'cycles' on Friday, which is why this will start on a Friday.

Friday: Weights - chest/back
Saturday: Weights legs/shoulders
Sunday: Aerobic - swim
            Weights - core/arms
Monday: Weights - chest/back
Tuesday: Morning, Anaerobic - run
              Weights - legs/shoulders
Wednesday: Weights - core/arms
Thursday: Morning, Anaerobic - swim
              Afternoon, Aerobic (90-120min) - weighted hike or run

Feel free to post what your training regime looks like during a week!

 

[MedicTWO]

I noticed you don't have any rest days.
How long have you been doing this cycle and have you felt like you've hit a wall?

I ask because I am trying to figure out my workout schedule around half marathon training, mma classes and bodyweight workouts

 

[dankcco]

Because I keep my weight workouts segregated to specific muscle groups they have the time to recover between workouts. The anaerobic and aerobic work does not interfere with this either. The hard part is just keeping up the calorie consumption and getting enough sleep.

But no one is infallible, so life will sometimes get in the way and that will also give me some extra rest.

 

[MedicTWO]

Because I keep my weight workouts segregated to specific muscle groups they have the time to recover between workouts. The anaerobic and aerobic work does not interfere with this either. The hard part is just keeping up the calorie consumption and getting enough sleep.

But no one is infallible, so life will sometimes get in the way and that will also give me some extra rest.

Thanks
I think I'm getting gassed from lack of rest days because MMA is a full body workout.

 

[EliteTrgPrograms]

MedicTWO,

Have you read 8 Weeks Out by Joel Jamieson?  If you're doing MMA for the sport, and not the hobby he outlines a very intelligent training plan that shows you how to blend together energy systems and specific/non-specific training together to have you peaking at the appropriate time.  A lack of rest days will crush anyone.  Joel has also created something called a heart rate variability monitor (HRV) that measures the changes of time intervals between heart beats.  This has been proven to correlate very well with training readiness.  While you'll need some time and understanding to interpret the data, it can help you create great awareness in your training program.

 

[MedicTWO]

Wes-Ken,

Thank you I will look into it. I mostly just do it as a hobby and to unwind after a tough day at work. I always look forwards to learning more about training philosophies (especially sport specific) and how they relate to the full body athlete.

 

[theforcewithin]

Thanks
I think I'm getting gassed from lack of rest days because MMA is a full body workout.

MedicTWO, I'm doing MMA as well to prepare. How many days a week do you train, and to what intensity/extent? Do you take supplements as well? I'm mixing it with endurance and strength training, but I feel as though if I push too much, I'll eventually gas out sooner rather than later.

I'll take a look at Wes-Ken's recommendation re: 8 Weeks Out too.

 

[Troubleman24]

So I got sworn in last week. I'm led to believe that I won't be getting in BMQ before January. But I wanted to know if I should change up my work out routine or still keep on doing it.
This is what my routine consists of

Monday: Push
Tuesday: Pull
Wednesday: Cardio
Thursday: Legs
Friday: Push
Saturday: Pull
Sunday: Off

Day 1: Push
Bench Press 3 sets
Incline Bench Press 3 sets
Dips 3 sets
Military Shoulder Press 3 sets
Triceps Pulldowns until complete burnout

Day 2: Pull
Bent Over Rows 3 sets
Chin Ups 3 sets
Machine Rows 3 sets
Bicep Curls 3 sets

Day 3: Legs & Abs
Squats 3 sets
Leg Press 3 sets
Hamstring Leg Curls 3 sets
Abs exercises 3 sets(captain chair leg raises)
Plank till I'm done(maximum I do is 4:12 as of now)

Basically for all weight exercises I just add more weight and do less reps(minus 2) every set, but I also try on my last set to do the same amount of reps I did on my 2nd sep with more weight sometimes I can or Im just shy of 1
As for Cardio the thing I do is just run for 30 seconds at the maximum speed I can on the treadmill(12.5) and then walk for 60 seconds. I do this 10 times.
Also during the summer I tried to play basketball on Sundays which helped my cardio.