Physical Fitness of reserves

[Cpl_Fitness]

Hello,

I'm looking for junior NCM reservists from Calgary from all the units in Calgary.   The reason being, I am attempting to organize an unofficial physical fitness event that would envolve reserves from around the city.   Additionally, I am the fitness NCO for my squadron, and I am attempting to organize a physical fitness program that will work for everyone (especially class A reserves who have to do it on thier own time, and often times, don't) and I would appreciate any feedback from anyone with interest and/or experience.   Please PM or reply if you're interested.

** EDIT
Also, anyone interested in partaking in the debate about physical fitness, please do so

 

[a23trucker]

Be very very careful......

 

[M.O.]

Well what really do you want to do? What kind of exercise? Would it be a physical like running obstical event or what? Give more details man then more people might be interested.

 

[A.K.]

True. A bit more detail would make suggestions easier to give.

 

[Posthumane]

Hello, I am a Cfn in 14 (Calgary) Svc Bn. I am quite interested in a physical fitness program for Class A reservists, since I am by nature lazy and usually don't get the motivation to go out an exercise on my own. As was mentioned, some more details would be helpful. I am curious as to how you intend to organize groups of people who have completely different lifestyles and schedules outside of the military. I for one am a full time engineering student, and have very limited time that I can devote to fitness training (hence the little amount that I do is usually late at night before going to sleep).

 

[pbi]

We've discussed this issue on other threads, IIRC. I've heard two different DJA officers in LFWA over the last two years both state unequivocally that if a Reservist performs PT, for a military purpose, on his own time, with the written auth of his CO, he may be considered as being "on duty" for the purposes of pension/benefits if he were to die/be incapacitated as a result of doing PT on his own. There is a somewhat related precedent to "duty on own time" in that Res who complete certain PME via Distributed Learning, on their own, may be paid for it upon completion.

IMHO, it really isn;t a question of what the military does or doesn't do for the fitness of Class A Res. In the end a "traditional" Class A Reserve soldier, like a volunteer firefighter, will either keep themseleves fit on their own as part of their lifestyle, or they won't. It is up to the individual to be as fit as they can be: the Class A environment can not really do much more than gauge progress or failure. IMHO it shows a rather weak attitude to say: "Here I am Army-it's your job to get me fit".  

Get fit or get fat. Cheers.

 

[bossi]

So, using your logic:
"... it really isn't a question of what the military does or doesn't do for the education of officers.  In the end a "traditional" officer, like a volunteer firefighter, will either upgrade their education on their own as part of their professionalism, or they won't.  It is up to the individual to learn as much as they can: the Reg Force environment can not really do much more than gauge progress or failure.  It shows a rather weak attitude to say: "Here I am Army-it's your job to educate me". 

Go to school and pay for it out of your own pocket (like most reservists) or remain uneducated.  Cheers."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

He that is good with a hammer tends to think everything is a nail.
Abraham Maslow.

 

[dglad]

The hard reality of the Reserves is that it simply isn't feasible to "make" a Class A soldier fit.  With only 35-40 trg days per year, the best the leadership in a Res unit can do is encourage their soldiers to get and remain fit.  And the only way of "testing" fitness for Class A Reservists is to observe them performing their job.  If Cpl Bloggins is capable of humping the C6 on exercise, deploying it as directed and using it to deliver effective fire on order, he's fit enough.  The trouble with most other sorts of testing is that they're arbitrary and artificial; when we used to have the 1.5 mile run, we had all kinds of tps that could make the timing running around a track in PT kit, but couldn't keep up with their section during an advance to contact.  I acknowledge that the BFT and the recent Army Fitness Program are quantum leaps ahead in that regard, IMHO, but there are still problems using them as strict "tests" for Class A's.

So we can encourage our Class A soldiers by assessing their ability to do their job, their fitness being one factor affecting that ability.  That's about all we can do.  As for the liability issue while they're working out to get fit on their own time, that's probably wholly unworkable.  There would be no independent way of verifying whether Bloggins broke his ankle while running, or while stumbling around drunk at a house party.  I'm afraid that Class A Reservists will have to make themselves fit because a) it helps their job performance in the Reserves, and may help them avoid administrative action because they can't perform and b) because it's a good thing to do simply from a life-style point of view. 

 

[bossi]

Okay - I'm back from my rucksack march - a cool, sunny day - the autumn leaves are beautiful
(yes - I know it's Sunday, I won't get paid for it, but the BFT doesn't have a "only class 'A' " standard ...)

So, I'm doing my BFT trg on my own personal (unpaid) time, wearing civvies just so some DJA doesn't haemorrage brown at the horrible thought that I might actually be doing military-related physical fitness training on my own time and at my own expense (egads - I hope that's not a service offence ...).

Yup - there's no bargain like it.

Competence, like truth, beauty and contact lenses, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[a23trucker]

I say again: Be very very careful!

It is the duty of Class A's to stay fit as part of an personal overall healthy lifestyle only.
The CF has no liability.

As soon as a soldier tries to get/stay fit only for their Class A duty it becomes a issue of the chain of command & the CF as a whole.
(IE. training for a BFT event)
When this happens a whole new set of rules come into play along with the liabilities.
(ie. the Unit CO must approve a training sched for any fitness training outside of normal parading hours)
The CF has clearly stated that it is not going to accept this liability either for the funding for this fitness training (if the CO approves the trg sched they are obliged to pay for it)
or
the liability for a soldier that is hurt while doing this training. (only injuries during a authorized and sched trg session either inside or outside of normal training hours will be covered)

Hence the requirement for Class A's to complete the BFT was dropped since the CF can't afford to pay for the training required to prepare for it.

I don't consider myself a SME, but I've done a lot of research on the matter and I believe I was the officer who's summary investigation of an injury led to the decision ending of the BFT for Class A's.

Again be very very careful. We don't want any more soldiers left Injured, unable to work their Civy job for extended periods of time & unable to claim compensation because of an Innocent but unfortunate incident. (This really happened in 1996)

Please don't get me wrong Class A's must be fit, but please proceed only with due caution:

AM

 

[pbi]

So, using your logic:
"... it really isn't a question of what the military does or doesn't do for the education of officers. In the end a "traditional" officer, like a volunteer firefighter, will either upgrade their education on their own as part of their professionalism, or they won't. It is up to the individual to learn as much as they can: the Reg Force environment can not really do much more than gauge progress or failure. It shows a rather weak attitude to say: "Here I am Army-it's your job to educate me".

Go to school and pay for it out of your own pocket (like most reservists) or remain uneducated. Cheers."

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

I'm not sure I'm following you. We're talking about Reservists, right? Class A Reservists who, as dglad pointed out, have only a very few days each month to engage in military activity of any sort. So, if we extend the argument to PSE, which wasn't really the point, but OK, WTF, let's go for it; the Army does reimburse Reserve officers for educational expenses. Not nearly enough, IMHO, but it does. Now, unless policy has changed, the Army does NOT require Res officers to have degrees. (Correct me if I'm wrong here). So, the Army is in fact already paying you for something that it does not demand that you have. In my case, the Army "owns" me, 24/7. If it requires me to get a degree, it can send me to school if it wants (it did in my case...) or it can make me get it on my own and reimburse me later (I did some of that too, when I was working in the LFCA shop...). If the Army wants me to be fit (which it does), then it allocates time out of the military work day for me to work on being fit.

This is the crux of the problem for the  Class A Reserve soldier: time. It is not an issue of geese, ganders, lawyers shitting their trousers (a hideous thought...) or anything else. Just time. That's why it isn't an issue for Class B and C guys: they can do PT, or be required to do PT (ie: Res FTS in 38 CBG HQ..) as part of the duty day.

Now, I think that dglad is probably right when he says that we need PT testing that reflects reality, and that just doing the job of a Cbt A soldier is physically demanding. Roger on both counts: but that doesn't change my position: Class A Reservists must get fit as a personal lifestyle issue, just like volunteer firefighters, or they will not be effective in their duties. You know this already, or you would not be doing PT on your own. Cheers.

 

[bossi]

No, the policy has changed - they're taking away the education grant for reservists.

And, as you've pointed out - the Army wants reservists to be fit, too.
Agreed - there's not enough class "A" time.
However, that does not preclude them from reimbursing reservists for passing their annual physical fitness test (i.e. using the precedent you yourself gave - they reimbursed you, since you were working towards an Army requirement ... on your own time ...)

It's simply too inconsistent to state that all soldiers must be fit, but then only pay some of them for it.
And, it's cynical to then turn around and deny all liability if/when a class "A" reservist is injured during physical fitness training ... when they, too, were working towards an Army requirement.

 

[pbi]

No, the policy has changed - they're taking away the education grant for reservists.

And, as you've pointed out - the Army wants reservists to be fit, too.
Agreed - there's not enough class "A" time.
However, that does not preclude them from reimbursing reservists for passing their annual physical fitness test (i.e. using the precedent you yourself gave - they reimbursed you, since you were working towards an Army requirement ... on your own time ...)

It's simply too inconsistent to state that all soldiers must be fit, but then only pay some of them for it.
And, it's cynical to then turn around and deny all liability if/when a class "A" reservist is injured during physical fitness training ... when they, too, were working towards an Army requirement.

When I deployed, the CLS was fighting a rear-guard action to save the educational reimbursement program for Reservists, against the depredations of VCDS types who said it wasn't of any value for investment. CLS wanted a further year for trials. Confirm for me (please) that the program is definitely dead? If so it was a very, very short sighted move. The potential in the program was immense.

I agree 100% with an annual bonus for passing a PT test-it might be like the UK TA who get an annual "bounty" if they complete required training-this amount is paid on top of their normal pay.

But, on your last statement, I'm a bit mystified. Like I said in my earlier post, I've heard the unequivocal legal opinions of two DJA officers out here in LFWA, that if the tick-boxes I mentioned above were in place, the individual Res soldier is in a strong position for compensation (keeping in mind that each case is weighed on its merits when it comes to pensions and benefits). I'm curious to know if you are aware of an actual precedent in which a Class A Res soldier, whose "own time" PT activity met the criteria I stated earlier, suffered an injury and was denied appropriate compensation. I'm not saying such precedent doesn't exist, but I'm just not aware of the case. If it was denied, it would be interesting to know the detailed grounds for denial. If the denial was challenged and overturned, those grounds would be instructive as well.

However, all of that aside, it will still come down to lifestyle. You make fitness part of your life, or you don't. When I was at LFCA I was an out of shape POS. Now,a few years later, I'm not. It was up to me to change my lifestyle, which I did. Even in the RegF you can be an idle tub if you want, and probably get away with it if you can hide or BS successfully. To me, that's not the point. It's about personal drive. Cheers.

 

[dglad]

It's simply too inconsistent to state that all soldiers must be fit, but then only pay some of them for it.
And, it's cynical to then turn around and deny all liability if/when a class "A" reservist is injured during physical fitness training ... when they, too, were working towards an Army requirement.

Believe me, I'm in heated agreement with you.  The system is shirking its responsibility to Class A Res soldiers by taking such a position.  However, that doesn't change the quandry Class A leadership face--their primary job is to force-generate effective soldiers who can, if available, deploy on operations.  Fitness is a key part of that effectiveness.  The only way around that that I've ever found is to say my soldiers have to be able to do their jobs (hump C6, employ it, etc. see my post above).  I NEVER told my soldiers they had to be fit, nor did I ever employ the BFT as a testing tool.  The only value of the BFT for Class A Reserves is to show people how they match up to the Army fitness standard--another tool of encouragement.  However, as soon as you say someone has to meet a particular standard of fitness, you are obligated,  I believe, to make certain it's possible for them to achieve that standard.  So the system's wishy-washy position has, therefore, forced us into a game of semantics i.e. no, you don't have to be fit, you simply have to be able to do this job.  Splitting hairs?  Yep.  Is it right?  Not really, but while the lawyers argue, we have soldiers to train for operations.  So there you go.

 

[Infanteer]

The education program for the Reserves was a joke.

For my First Year, I submitted the paperwork and close to 6-8 months later I was given 2/3's the amount that I submitted (and the chief clerk said I was eligible for).

For the Second Year, I submitted all the paperwork and never heard a word back.   I assumed the paperwork was lost or that the bureaucracy involved simply ate it up.

For the Third Year I never even bothered to submit a claim, as the time and energy involved in getting the paperwork prepared and submitted wasn't worth the headache of a crap shoot for some reimbursement.

The CF needs to recognize that if they want to put a program like this into place they need to unpucker their sphincter, trust their subordinates, and make the money easily accessible (perhaps giving CO's the power to disburse the funds).

Ultimately, the program was useless and I finished my University education by taking a year off, going on operations with the PPCLI, and putting that money to tuition, books and a room.

 

[pbi]

The education program for the Reserves was a joke.

For my First Year, I submitted the paperwork and close to 6-8 months later I was given 2/3's the amount that I submitted (and the chief clerk said I was eligible for).

For the Second Year, I submitted all the paperwork and never heard a word back.  I assumed the paperwork was lost or that the bureaucracy involved simply ate it up.

For the Third Year I never even bothered to submit a claim, as the time and energy involved in getting the paperwork prepared and submitted wasn't worth the headache of a crap shoot for some reimbursement.

The CF needs to recognize that if they want to put a program like this into place they need to unpucker their sphincter, trust their subordinates, and make the money easily accessible (perhaps giving CO's the power to disburse the funds).

Ultimately, the program was useless and I finished my University education by taking a year off, going on operations with the PPCLI, and putting that money to tuition, books and a room.

Infanteer: because some hopeless clowns F/U the administration of your case does not mean that the program was bad or had no potential. On the contrary, the program was an excellent start and had, as I stated, huge potential. I saw it as a WIN/WIN/WIN:

-The individual student/soldier, who gets help with their PSE;

-The Army Reserve, as a way of rewarding/retaining and possibly recruiting; and

-The country, as anything that opens the doors of PSE to more kids of average backgrounds is, IMHO, good.

The program needed to be better administered, to be somewhat more generous, and to be broadened to include technical courses at community colleges (thus likely offering a much-needed shot in the arm to our Res CSS units). I suspect, though, that this program probably had silent enemies from the start, who killed it as soon as they co.uld. Cheers

 

[Infanteer]

I never said the concept was a joke, I said the program was.

I've advocated on many occasions on this board that the Military be liberal in education incentives to help bring a larger percentage of mainstream society into viewing a 3 year term in the military (or a spending their university days as a reservist) as an attractive option.  I believe if we had something like the Montgomery GI Bill, we could easily attract more people to military service.  Sure, many of them would only do a basic engagement, but this seems to be a current trend anyways, and at least it gets us privates willing to get their boots dirty.

The trick is to not manage the program like the last one was in the sense that it was centrally managed by some faceless bureaucrat who feels that every dollar he surrenders to a student/soldier is like passing a kidney stone.  The program was unresponsive and complex.  I always thought the program would be better if it was administered by the Unit CO.

 

[pbi]

I agree whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, IMHO far too much is in the hands of "faceless bureaucrats" at NDHQ who consider themselves to be the anointed guardians of the public purse against the filthy thieves in "the field". I recall once (in my days as A/G3 of LFCA) getting a phonecall from a very concerned J1 staff officer who was incensed to hear that some soldiers in 2 CMBG had taken two days more re-deployment leave than what they were entitled to. Horrors! He was most indignant when I pointed out that in the G3 shop we really didnt GAFF about G1 issues like that, and redirected him to somebody who cared. Cheers.

 

[Posthumane]

Hey, good points by all, on both the physical fitness issue, and the education. I totally agree with Infanteer about the program being a joke, as I had the same experience as you with putting in the paperwork, and not hearing a word about it for over a year and eventually just giving up and forgetting about it.

The reason I replied with interest to the original post about trying to organize a fitness program for class A's, is that although I have taken some steps toward a more healthy and active lifestyle (I'm no slob, but I would still like to improve), it's always nice to have a group that you can join and work with towards a common goal, rather than trying to do it on your own. I think it would be good if class A's had a system where they could maybe sign in for voluntary, unpaid PT time at any time in the week, so that they are medically covered, but the army doesn't have to spend the expense of actually paying the soldier for that time. That's all I would want at this point.

Not too long ago, the CO of my unit had a CO's challenge day consisting of the 13k rucksack march followed by the 100m fireman carry (both part of the BFT as far as I know), followed by a day of fun activity in the afternoon. This gave me a goal to work towards while training in the weeks prior, which was good. But, since the event was not mandatory due to the fact that we didn't have time to prepare for it during parade days, no consequences came from not being able to complete the event, and nothing good came from having passed it, so it seemed kind of disappointing.

 

[dglad]

Getting fit with a group of friends is still a worthy goal.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the system to find a way to make itself liable for it, though.  Your point about not paying Class A's while doing personal PT is noteworthy, but the system response would be that an injured member could end up costing far more than a small amount of Class A pay...not to mention the precedents set, etc.  My advice would be to simply keep yourself fit because it's the right thing to do, it's good for you, and will likely give you the benefit of a longer, healthier life.  Frankly, anyone who's reasonably fit would be able to perform as a Class A Reservist anyway; you really don't have to be an Olympic athlete to succeed in a Reserve unit. 

And, In theory, before you deployed on an op, you would have to do sufficient work-up training to get ready anyway (I say in theory because I've seen instances lately in which the supposed "required" work-up time has been shaved down considerably).  And even then, starting from a good level of fitness will be sufficient to launch you into work-up training well-positioned to succeed.