pistols of US army
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From what I've heard/read the M9 that the US army is currently using is being/close to being phased out, in order to bring back the .45 caliber.
This is mainly because troops are complaining about 9mm not being strong enough, either to punch through armor, or even to bring down an unarmored opponent without putting most of the clip into him.
keep in mind this is a second or even third hand reporting of the situation.
-J
This is mainly because troops are complaining about 9mm not being strong enough, either to punch through armor, or even to bring down an unarmored opponent without putting most of the clip into him.
keep in mind this is a second or even third hand reporting of the situation.
-J
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I like the two I have. Mind, I'm more partial to the Commander than the 1911A1.
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Not certain but, I think the US military went the 9mm route to standardize with NATO.
Pert much everyone else was 9mm VS their own 45cal.
Given that there is a need to listen to the troops some of the time, someone has had enough sense to listen - and the pendulum swings back the other way.
Pert much everyone else was 9mm VS their own 45cal.
Given that there is a need to listen to the troops some of the time, someone has had enough sense to listen - and the pendulum swings back the other way.
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I have never been a big fan of the 9MM in the first place. Not in the military or police service. I especially have never liked the Beretta pistol. I'd choose the SIG-SAUER, HK, Glock or Colt in that order, anytime over the Beretta.
The problem with the 9MM is in the military, is one that can not use the cartridge that would make it capable, i. e. the better hollow point bullet, because of the GC. So, as long as one is stuck with a full metal jacket bullet that doesn't expand, etc. I'd rather stick with a larger harder hitting bullet.
As far as some soft body armor goes, the 9MM has a better chance of penetration than a .45. It depends on the number of layers in the vest and the length of the barrel of the firearm. Most .45's are easier to stop than 9MM.
A number of LE agencies switched from the .38 caliber 6 shot revolver to a high capacity 9MM; however, many now have gone to the .40 caliber or .45 caliber, because of lack of stopping power, etc. of the 9MM, even with the better ammo.
You'll see a lot of SWAT cops using the .45. Of course LE is able to choose from the great selection of hollow points ammo on the market now days, where the military can not. Of course, shot placement is still very important in the stopping power no matter what you're shooting!
Actually the new Sig 220 in .45 would make a great replacement for the Beretta, IMHO
The problem with the 9MM is in the military, is one that can not use the cartridge that would make it capable, i. e. the better hollow point bullet, because of the GC. So, as long as one is stuck with a full metal jacket bullet that doesn't expand, etc. I'd rather stick with a larger harder hitting bullet.
As far as some soft body armor goes, the 9MM has a better chance of penetration than a .45. It depends on the number of layers in the vest and the length of the barrel of the firearm. Most .45's are easier to stop than 9MM.
A number of LE agencies switched from the .38 caliber 6 shot revolver to a high capacity 9MM; however, many now have gone to the .40 caliber or .45 caliber, because of lack of stopping power, etc. of the 9MM, even with the better ammo.
You'll see a lot of SWAT cops using the .45. Of course LE is able to choose from the great selection of hollow points ammo on the market now days, where the military can not. Of course, shot placement is still very important in the stopping power no matter what you're shooting!
Actually the new Sig 220 in .45 would make a great replacement for the Beretta, IMHO
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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The US military put out a letter calling for submissions of interests in a possible order for 600,000 pistols in .45acp with a number of requirements include a manual safety and a rail. This stirred a huge interest by the gun manufacturers, which resulted in many of the recent offerings now on the market. A 2nd letter went out dropping the bid down to 50,000 pistols and then a third letter went out canceling the project. The current pistol has had some issues, mostly magazine related (sounds familiar?) Although I do believe that the hotter NATO spec ammo is causing some failures on the slide if I recall correctly. The biggest problem for the 9mm is that they are restricted to ball ammo and can not use the more effective JHP’s on the market.
The 1911 is a fine design but I think the call required a larger capacity than the 7 rds it has. Not all of the double stack versions have been completely reliable.
I believe the Glock SF model was a response to the initial letter even though they did not mount an external safety. (Glock did make one for the G17 which I think Norway bought)
The 1911 is a fine design but I think the call required a larger capacity than the 7 rds it has. Not all of the double stack versions have been completely reliable.
I believe the Glock SF model was a response to the initial letter even though they did not mount an external safety. (Glock did make one for the G17 which I think Norway bought)
- People want pistols to be small, light, safe, easy to qualify on, large mag capacity and have the "stopping power" (however you define it) of a 25 pdr H.E. projectile.
- It ain't gonna happen folks.
- Then you get the 'experts' who claim that we need 6.8 mm rifles because 5.56mm is too weak (said experts originating from the same country the forced 5.56mm on the world to start with). Those same experts then take another sip of Chardonnay and tell us that 9mm is too weak a pistol cartridge and must be replaced by .45 ACP, which is 'a superb man-stopper'.
- So: 5.56 is not a man-stopper, but .45 ACP is?
- We adopted the Inglis Browning in 1944 for commonality of ammunition: Sten guns (9mm) had mostly replaced Thompsons (.45 ACP) in the Canadian Army. Germany also had commonality in pistol/SMG ammo. The USSR did - to a point. The USA did (M1911A1 and a Thompson, or an M3, or a Reising).
- But, just what is it we want that pistol to do? Is it a convenience or a battle winner?
- It ain't gonna happen folks.
- Then you get the 'experts' who claim that we need 6.8 mm rifles because 5.56mm is too weak (said experts originating from the same country the forced 5.56mm on the world to start with). Those same experts then take another sip of Chardonnay and tell us that 9mm is too weak a pistol cartridge and must be replaced by .45 ACP, which is 'a superb man-stopper'.
- So: 5.56 is not a man-stopper, but .45 ACP is?
- We adopted the Inglis Browning in 1944 for commonality of ammunition: Sten guns (9mm) had mostly replaced Thompsons (.45 ACP) in the Canadian Army. Germany also had commonality in pistol/SMG ammo. The USSR did - to a point. The USA did (M1911A1 and a Thompson, or an M3, or a Reising).
- But, just what is it we want that pistol to do? Is it a convenience or a battle winner?
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Not to mention that 9mm comes in many flavours including .357magnum. It has less to do with the size of the slug as to what is behind it. People kill elephants with 9.3mm guns.
Colin P said:
- You need a 'rimless' cartridge in an SMG mag. .357 Magnum is a slightly longer and more powerful .38 Special. Basically, a wheel-gun cartridge (a good one, mind you).
- The equivalent in a rimless would be .38 Super.
- The problem with souping up a pistol cartridge is you end up with a cartridge no bureaucracy can qualify it's people on. After the Miami massacre - blamed on 9mm to save careers - the FBI wanted to go to the 10mm. The current round then was the Norma loaded 200 grain/1200 FPS load. I fired about a thousand of those in the late 1980s. Recoil is between .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum. Did the FBI really want that?
- Nope. They wanted it downloaded so they could qualify on it. Once that was decided, why not shorten the cartridge case to make it easier to double stack the magazine? Voila! .40 S&W is born. 10mm meanwhile, has found it's niche as a great cartridge forhunting deer by handgun.
- Everyone wants a pistol to do a rifle's job. It won't. It can't.
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Beretta USA just recieved a US Army Contract for 25,403 M9's delivery to begin in July 2008
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Colin P said:
W.D.M. Bell killed a metric @$$load of them with a 7x57 Mauser - it's all about placement...
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