POLL: Do you think Canadian soldiers should be in Afghanistan?

[PAT-Platoon]

So these friends of yours have multiple tours under their belts,...cause most of the people you are arguing poorly with have.

Combat tours are in no way a substitute for public and foreign policy decisions. It's like saying you have to be a director or have made a film to critique a movie. As to the above comments regarding architects, doctors etc. that question is dubious at best. As a fellow member of the CF I am merely pointing out valid criticisms, which frankly aren't so controversial at this point. People outside of the military can be competent or qualified to comment on the conduct of battle because the results of that battle effect them. That's the missing point here. By looking only to how competently conduct a battle, one gets tunnel vision and doesn't see the whole picture. That's why we have different levels of command in the military, and that's why we have a civilian controlled (thank goodness) military. They have every right to comment on how we conduct battle because we represent Canada, them, and we are civil servants in a sense. If you think they are such "fools", instead of antagonizing them by demeaning them and calling them misinformed, how about we start informing them instead? Throwing your hands up in the air and declaring them to be idiots won't solve anything, and will only make us look even worse in their eyes.

Start to understand that their concerns are valid. That is what I did, I say that their concerns are valid and I now attempt to combat them with my own opinions regarding what we should or should not be doing (within my experiences of course). You're not going to win over anyone by calling them fools.

As to what I personally believe is right? Well, I look at it this way now. The public wants us out. The Canadian Forces is a tool of the government, and thus the public. All parties currently in Canada want us out by at least 2011. So with that in regards, I think, to use a cliche, "the people have spoken". So, as it is my job to do, as it is everyones, I will carry out my duty respectfully and to the greatest of my abilities.
-C/D

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Cog-Dis,

You clearly missed the last sentence of my previous post where I stated that I have absolutely no issue with your opinion on the whether of the mission in Afghanistan- that is a purely political matter (although that I would parenthetically note that, just from what I have seen from your posts, I question your choice of vocation as a soldier- even in a part-time role).

Nothing I have said speaks against the civil control of the military in a democratic society.  You clearly misunderstand, either willfully or ignorantly, what civil control of the military means.  What is means (basically), is that Parliament decides what the CF does and for how long.  The CF (basically) decides how a thing is done.  You do not see cabinet Ministers posted to Kandahar on the BG staff to decide how Operations are conducted, do you?  Why?  Because they are not competent to do so and it would violate the other half of the bargain we have with our civilian leadership- though shalt not mettle in purely military affairs.  Now, it can be argued that a COIN operation has a civilian nexus, because the victory in Afghanistan will not come from a NATO gun barrel- it will come, frankly, from a Afghan politician in Kabul, ultimately.  We merely allow those victory conditions to come into play.

And my analogy about professional expertise is not off the mark.  The CF is the institution in Canada which houses the professional expertise on military and, specifically COIN, matters. Therefore, the CF's opinion on how to conduct COIN Operation had better carry the most weight with the Government.  Clearly, by the contents of your posts, over 700,000 posts on this site have not educated you, so why should I expect anyone else outside to "get it"?  Frankly, you can have an opinion on how Operations are conducted- I just don't have to give your opinion any weight, because in my professional opinion (backed by a degree in military studies and over 23 years of uniformed service), you haven't the foggiest clue about what you are posting.

Good Day to you, Sir.

 

[Flip]

As to what I personally believe is right? Well, I look at it this way now. The public wants us out. The Canadian Forces is a tool of the government, and thus the public. All parties currently in Canada want us out by at least 2011. So with that in regards, I think, to use a cliche, "the people have spoken".

But what does this mean?
Canadians would like the job to be finished? fine...
Canadians would like someone else to step up? arguable......
Canadians would like a return of Taliban rule? certainly not!

I think what it really means is that Canadians don't really know or care to know what's going on and would like to feel like the "nice guy" in all this.

It also seems to indicate that we have a minority government that has been cornered on this issue by three other parties and some special interest groups.

 

[thunderchild]

I'm not very political and it's been a long while since I was in uniform but here is my thoughts,  I'm proud of what our solders have done and are doing,  my son saw 911 happen he was young and home after getting his toncils out.  we let him watch T.V. in his room as a treat, as we had only 1 TV my wife was listening to CD's she didn't know it was happening till it was all over and my  son told her.  Now my son is an aircadet and has plans to join the forces.  He doesn't want kids to see what he saw again so thank you for what you have done.. He feels safe that's thanks to you guys.  That is a debt that I can't repay but my son means to do the same for somebody Else's kids.
That makes me proud and scares me too because I know that he will.  So do I think we need to finish the job then yes I do.  Our Allies do need to step up, be it equipment, troops,resources for the PRT's, money what ever is needed in this NATO has failed especially our Afan allies it is their country after all it's there war too.

  I just have to think that had we geared up the home front as they have done before would we be asking these questions?  After all what are we afraid of ....gutting our economy...DONE.... or win the war Not done yet.

 

[George Wallace]

Flip

I am glad that I am not the only one to find this statement offensive and false:

.......... Well, I look at it this way now. The public wants us out. The Canadian Forces is a tool of the government, and thus the public. All parties currently in Canada want us out by at least 2011. So with that in regards, I think, to use a cliche, "the people have spoken". So, as it is my job to do, as it is everyones, I will carry out my duty respectfully and to the greatest of my abilities.
-C/D

C/D

I can't add much more to what SeaKing Tacco said.  I just question your statement and obvious opinion that the Canadian Public wants Canadian Troops out of Afghanistan.  What statistics have you to back that up?  I'll also stipulate that, by askng for "credible" statistics. 

I know darn well that if one lives in an enclosed environment, and goes through life with blinders on, such as someone in a small commune of pot smoking aging Draft Dodging hippies, they may feel that ALL Canadians are against us having Canadian Troops anywhere.  Unfortunately, not everyone in this country is so naive.  Many actually research their facts and broaden their horizons. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, C\D has presumed, on a number of occasions, to speak for us. I guess it's just natural progression that he now speaks for most everyone in the country

 

[mjc_1812]

I can't add much more to what SeaKing Tacco said.  I just question your statement and obvious opinion that the Canadian Public wants Canadian Troops out of Afghanistan.  What statistics have you to back that up?  I'll also stipulate that, by askng for "credible" statistics. 

In his defence, \statistics have shown that the majority of Canadians are losing support for the War. I found this article on the Globe and Mail website (I haven't found the actual poll, but the Globe is a legitimate paper).

A Canadian Press-Decima Research survey shows 67 per cent of those asked believe the number of casualties has been unacceptable, a five-percentage-point rise from a poll taken a little over a month ago.

Only 25 per cent of respondents said the number of killed and wounded was acceptable, in a survey taken following the most recent deaths of six soldiers in a roadside bomb attack.

Bruce Anderson, CEO of Decima Research, said Canadians are clearly becoming more doubtful about whether progress is being made, in light of the deaths of 66 soldiers and one diplomat in Afghanistan.

Taken from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070712.wafgpoll0712/BNStory/Afghanistan/home

Take this as you will, whether you want to believe that this translates into the Canadian people want us in, but think other NATO countries need to step up or that the bulk of them want us out. Regardless, the stats are there and please note that these do not reflect my personal opinion.

PS these numbers are from 2007. Whether support has increased, I am not sure.

 

[R. Jorgensen]

With the amount of support they have provided, the amount of lives they have improved by introduing innovative irrigation systems and whatnot along with removing the tyrannist stranglehold of the Taliban, I think it's great that our Forces are providing Pres. Karzai the assistance he wanted. I support the mission however, if they continue to perform in Afghanistan the death toll will rise but quality of life will be improved; but when they are removed from A-stan, I have a feeling that the Taliban will return and all of the hard work that the Forces put into that country will disappear almost as if they had never even set foot on their soil.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The simple anology is that you can't make an omelete (OMLT, POMLT  ;D) without breaking eggs.

 

[PAT-Platoon]

The simple anology is that you can't make an omelete (OMLT, POMLT  ;D) without breaking eggs.

I think the argument is that while that may be true, is the omelet we're making, worth the eggs that we are breaking? The public doesn't seem to think so.

The public, by and large now, don't support the mission in Afghanistan.

"The majority 61% of Canadians oppose sending troops to Afghanistan" (Strategic Counsel 2008 Pre-Election Poll)
Found Here

"59% of adults disagree with the mission's extension till 2011" (Angus Reid Poll)
Found Here

"Public support for Afghan mission lowest ever" (CBC poll conducted by Environics)
Found Here

Strategic Counsel, Angus Reid and CBC are all legitimate sources, as well, the margin of error and majority are so high for the one side that I don't think its realistic to argue poll-tampering or anything else that really discredits these sources.

So, personal opinions aside, I think the public have spoken on our mission there. Not only has the public spoken, but also all major parties in Canada have also agreed with this sentiment. As well, many professionnal opinions (for example the Manley report) support the current plan of action we have. These are all very persuasive elements to the argument, so its now more than ever difficult to argue for the extension of the mission. I don't think we should extend the mission simply because the public disagree with it, and that is what the CF is for, an extension of the government's will. Therefore, we have done our time there, its time to rebuild, refit and move on.

-C/D
-C/D

 

[George Wallace]

And the Strategic Councel are:

Hugh Anderson, Senior Associate
Derek Brasier, Analyst
Sébastien Dallaire, Senior Associate

Peter Donolo, Partner
Ellen Eastwood, Senior Associate

Ira Glasner, Associate
Nancy Gottlieb, Director of Operations

Christie Jamieson, Associate
Mike Jewer, Associate
Christopher Kelly, President

Anne Kilpatrick, Partner
Mindy Little, Senior Associate
Donna Nixon, Partner

Gloria Roheim, Associate
Micheline Ross, Associate

Patrick Rouselle, Principal
Warren Shiau, Senior Associate
Michael Sullivan, Partner
Anjali Varughese, Associate
Pam Ward, Senior Associate

Tim Fisher, Associate
Timothy Woolstencroft, Managing Partner


I don't have a clue who any of them are.

 

[PAT-Platoon]

And the Strategic Councel are:

Hugh Anderson, Senior Associate
Derek Brasier, Analyst
Sébastien Dallaire, Senior Associate

Peter Donolo, Partner
Ellen Eastwood, Senior Associate

Ira Glasner, Associate
Nancy Gottlieb, Director of Operations

Christie Jamieson, Associate
Mike Jewer, Associate
Christopher Kelly, President

Anne Kilpatrick, Partner
Mindy Little, Senior Associate
Donna Nixon, Partner

Gloria Roheim, Associate
Micheline Ross, Associate

Patrick Rouselle, Principal
Warren Shiau, Senior Associate
Michael Sullivan, Partner
Anjali Varughese, Associate
Pam Ward, Senior Associate

Tim Fisher, Associate
Timothy Woolstencroft, Managing Partner


I don't have a clue who any of them are.

The Strategic Counsel is a polling company cited by CTV news and the Globe and Mail. Do you believe that both CTV News and Globe and Mail are using illegitimate sources? Do you deny the legitimacy of Angus Reid and CBC News as reputable sources? How about these:

Harris Decima
Envirionics,
Ipsos Reid
SES Research

All of these polling companies have the same thing in common. Majority of Canadians disagreeing with the war in Afghanistan. Can you show me even one polling company right now that has a different result? I sure can't. It sounds like you are grasping at straws here.

-C/D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I think the argument is that while that may be true, is the omelet we're making, worth the eggs that we are breaking? The public doesn't seem to think so.

The public, by and large now, don't support the mission in Afghanistan.

"The majority 61% of Canadians oppose sending troops to Afghanistan" (Strategic Counsel 2008 Pre-Election Poll)
Found Here

"59% of adults disagree with the mission's extension till 2011" (Angus Reid Poll)
Found Here

"Public support for Afghan mission lowest ever" (CBC poll conducted by Environics)
Found Here

Strategic Counsel, Angus Reid and CBC are all legitimate sources, as well, the margin of error and majority are so high for the one side that I don't think its realistic to argue poll-tampering or anything else that really discredits these sources.

So, personal opinions aside, I think the public have spoken on our mission there. Not only has the public spoken, but also all major parties in Canada have also agreed with this sentiment. As well, many professionnal opinions (for example the Manley report) support the current plan of action we have. These are all very persuasive elements to the argument, so its now more than ever difficult to argue for the extension of the mission. I don't think we should extend the mission simply because the public disagree with it, and that is what the CF is for, an extension of the government's will. Therefore, we have done our time there, its time to rebuild, refit and move on.

-C/D
-C/D

Let's go back to the basics. The question was:

Do you think Canadian soldiers should be in Afghanistan?

The question wasn't:

Should we remain after 2011?

The Canadian gov't is elected by the people, to run the country for them. Whether they always agree or not is decided at the polls.

The previous gov't sought and received House approval to stay until 2011. What happens after that is again up to the people, implemented through the Government and House.

BTW, for the neophytes amongst us. You can't run a counrty based on poll results. It's been tried many time and always proves to be an abject failure. Polls simply record the whims of the people interested enough to answer and seldom reflect the true popular undercurrents.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Strategic Counsel is a polling company cited by CTV news and the Globe and Mail. Do you believe that both CTV News and Globe and Mail are using illegitimate sources? Do you deny the legitimacy of Angus Reid and CBC News as reputable sources? How about these:

Harris Decima
Envirionics,
Ipsos Reid
SES Research

All of these polling companies have the same thing in common. Majority of Canadians disagreeing with the war in Afghanistan. Can you show me even one polling company right now that has a different result? I sure can't. It sounds like you are grasping at straws here.

-C/D

You better settle down sunshine. George simpply said he didn't know who they were. Get off your high horse. You're already in enough trouble without baseless accusations.

 

[PAT-Platoon]

Let's go back to the basics. The question was:

Do you think Canadian soldiers should be in Afghanistan?

The question wasn't:

Should we remain after 2011?

The Canadian gov't is elected by the people, to run the country for them. Whether they always agree or not is decided at the polls.

The previous gov't sought and received House approval to stay until 2011. What happens after that is again up to the people, implemented through the Government and House.

It's not decided by the polls no, but certainly you cannot argue that polling is not a legitimate tool to gauge the public opinion of a country? Because every party certainly uses it to gauge their public policies.

Polls simply record the whims of the people interested enough to answer and seldom reflect the true popular undercurrents.

Can you back that up? This is certainly an interesting comment.

You better settle down sunshine. George simpply said he didn't know who they were. Get off your high horse. You're already in enough trouble without baseless accusations

He was certainly implying that he didn't find the Strategic Counsel a reputable source. There's no use trying to claim ignorance here.

-C/D

 

[PAT-Platoon]

Can you back that up? This is certainly an interesting comment.

In addition, (since I cannot edit my post), I wish to add a follow up question. What is a good way then to reflect the true popular undercurrents?

-C/D

 

[Redeye]

Well, since they aren't clear at all, there's not really a good way to.  The popular opinion is a function of how the question is asked.  Since most of the public no idea what's going on in Afghanistan they haven't really got a clear, informed opinion on it.

But carry on all the same, it's amusing.

In addition, (since I cannot edit my post), I wish to add a follow up question. What is a good way then to reflect the true popular undercurrents?

-C/D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's not decided by the polls no, but certainly you cannot argue that polling is not a legitimate tool to gauge the public opinion of a country? Because every party certainly uses it to gauge their public policies.

Can you back that up? This is certainly an interesting comment.

He was certainly implying that he didn't find the Strategic Counsel a reputable source. There's no use trying to claim ignorance here.

-C/D

There you go, thinking for us again. I think it's about time, after numerous warnings, that you said goodbye.

 

[thunderchild]

Here is a thought ....lets take a camera to Vimy Ridge after the germans got their buts kicked off and take a picture of the Canadian cemetery from the battle how much support would there have been back home if the battle played out in real time on TV?  Not much I would think even though we were right and did an awesome job to say the least there would be 2 factors playing out, 1, not my son..what parent would want there kid in the trenches(national pride aside.) 2, most newer Canadians came here to escape wars  not to fight in one so go back to factor 1.  WE are right to be there, WE are making things better, WE are going to have to fight the "terrorist" so better to fight in their back yards than in ours.

 

[Michael OLeary]

In addition, (since I cannot edit my post), I wish to add a follow up question. What is a good way then to reflect the true popular undercurrents?

-C/D

Well, you seem to be representing yourself as the only valid source here.    :