Promotions in the CAF [Merged]

[Gunner]

If you want to be further in your career after 14 years place a lot of effort in developing yourself intellectually, physically, and professionally.  A little effort can go a long ways...

With the upcoming expansion of the CF as well as the older demographic currently serving, I have no doubt that a capable soldier will be pushed up the ranks very quickly if they show the ability to do so.

Remember, the only career manager that you have is yourself.

 

[SeanNewman]

2Bravo breaks it down quite well, but to add to that, the date they go by is usually the date of commissioning.  Once you graduate Ph4, they retro-date it so if you're a DEO, even though you did 2+ years as a 2Lt, that turns into 1 year 2Lt (on paper) and then 2 years as Lt.  Unless you're a problem child, Captain will come after three years of being commissioned. 

As far as turning down a promotion, it is a bigger deal than those above make it out to be.  It automatically gets forwarded straight to the CDS level for investigation.  As stated above, Captain is usually automatic, but after that, Major is hard enough to make that if you aren't trying for it, I promise you won't be offered a promotion.  There are several things that give you points toward promotion (education, career courses, command time, french profile, etc), and all you have to do is show any lack of interest.  There are a lot of very switched-on Captains competing for the extra skinny bar, because it's a very significant jump (much more than 2Lt->Lt or Lt->Capt).

 

[Roy Harding]

Sorry to give this one a shove back in the direction of NCM's... I've come across a few references in the media of "MCpl bloggins who has been in the military for 14 years.".... am I staring at a bleak career of little mobility? The prospect of being a Mcpl after 14 years in the infantry is bloody discouraging to say the least... when I see things like that it gets my mind racing about what else I could do with my life after my VIE.

I joined excited at the possiblity of starting a career of possibility am I kidding myself?

Perhaps the viewpoint of a recently retired NCM, then, regarding NCMs.  (No offence to my Air Force and Navy brethren, but I'll speak as a soldier - I assume something similar is true in your own services)

When I first joined, a bunch of us young Ptes were sitting around, discussing the best way to get promoted.  Our crusty old RSM overheard us, snorted, and delivered this little piece of advice:

"You can only get promoted six times in this man's army, and if any of YOU lot think you'll see all six then you're in for another think.  If the only day you're going to be happy is the day you're promoted then most of you are only going to have one or two happy days in your entire careers.  Stopping worrying about things you can't control and get the f**k on with it"

He was right.

If you are in the CF for the love of soldiering (no matter your trade) you will instinctively do those things that are required for promotion - out of the pure love of it.  You will expand your professional and trade knowledge on your own, you will push yourself to new limits physically, you will assist others in doing the same, you will cheerfully assist your superiors in achieving their aims, and you WILL be noticed doing all these things.  You just won't care about the notice, and your subsequent promotions will come as a surprise to you.  When you eventually retire (no matter your rank on retirement), you will remember your service with pride - you will remember all the things you accomplished, and all the good times you had.  You'll use the skills and experience you gained in the military and get onto to something else just as productive and rewarding.  You'll remember your life as being full, exciting, and enjoyable, and you'll look forward to the rest of your life as a civilian with equal fervour.

If you are in the CF to "plot your way to the top" you will be waiting for a promotion after doing "all the right things".  If it doesn't come you will back up and try something else, you will repeat this process again and again ad nauseum until you DO get promoted - then you'll start all over again plotting for the next rank.  In all this plotting and striving you will be watching your peers, wondering how THAT thudf**k got promoted ahead of me, when everybody knows that I'm better.  You will begin to believe that the system is corrupt, the Officers, Sr NCOs, and WOs are idiots, that there is a "Regimental Mafia" that protects their "Golden Boys", and you WILL become extremely bitter.  When you eventually retire (no matter your rank on retirement) you will remember your service with bitterness, you will remember all the things you weren't allowed to do, and all the lousy duties you had to pull.  You won't think that what skills you acquired in the military are of any use on civvie street (you'll be wrong, but you'll still think it), you'll get yourself into some dead end drone type job, and the cycle of bitterness you created in the military will be transferred to your new civilian career.  You'll remember your life with bitterness, regret, and disillusionment.

It's your call - I'd suggest that if your only reason for joining the military is to "get ahead", and you define "getting ahead" as being promoted, then you look elsewhere.  If you aren't in this for the love of soldiering, then don't get in.  This isn't a "job" you are contemplating - it IS a lifestyle, even if that has become a cliche.

Good luck to you, in whatever you decide to persue.

 

[a_himself]

Yeah I'm a little confused about how it all works myself.  I'm still officially a private, yet I've been getting paid Corporal wage for 4 months or so lol.

 

[CanadianBoy92]

If i was infantry and made sergeant, and wanted to stay sergeant for the rest of my career could this be done?

 

[Roy Harding]

Yeah I'm a little confused about how it all works myself.  I'm still officially a private, yet I've been getting paid Corporal wage for 4 months or so lol.

If you're reg force, look here:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp
The basic outline is at Annex A - there are a couple references to ADM(HR) Instructions which I do not have access to, as they are are on the DND Intranet. 

I cannot speak to your pay inquiry - I'm out of date by two years now, and a lot has changed.  You're unit OR will be able to help you out with that.

Good Luck to you.

 

[Roy Harding]

If i was infantry and made sergeant, and wanted to stay sergeant for the rest of my career could this be done?

Short answer:  Yes.  CFAO 49-4, Annex E states:

RELINQUISHMENT OF RANK



23. For the purposes of this Annex, relinquishment of rank means reversion to a lower rank at the member's request. Such requests may be for personal reasons or for purposes of OT or transfer. The approving authority for relinquishment of rank is N DHQ/DPCAOR.

24. Relinquishment of rank will not be approved where such action would permit early release of the member as a result of a change in the member's retirement age.

25. Except in the case of a transfer or OT, a member who relinquishes a rank shall not be considered for promotion until such time as the promotion authority is advised through normal channels that the member wishes to be considered for promotion in the future.

I've known guys who've done it and been quite happy.  I've known guys who've done it and regretted it.  Keep in mind that this decision will usually result in you not attending career courses, or most "nice to have's".

Good Luck to you.

 

[CanadianBoy92]

Thanks for that.  I will stay at sergeant.  I always wanted to know this, and Ive always just wanted to be sergeant. thanks.

 

[Pte_Martin]

Thanks for that.  I will stay at sergeant.  I always wanted to know this, and Ive always just wanted to be sergeant. thanks.

I'm just curious, you 're not in the CF yet are you? Why do you want to be just a sergeant? Do you know what they do?

 

[CanadianBoy92]

I have an idea of what they do.  Don't they lead a unit.  I want to be one because of what i see them do in movies.

 

[Pte_Martin]

This is off of http://www.cflc.forces.gc.ca/pubs/RUSP/skills_e.asp?who=sergeant#sergeant and it describes a Sergeant duties as

manage time and resources productively and efficiently

achieve a high level of quality control in all activities

conduct effective training in either theoretical skills or in group practical skills

assess performance and counsel subordinate staff

assist in the selection and guidance of leading hands

receive instructions from a superior and plan work priorities and resources to achieve a goal

give clear and concise instructions to subordinates to achieve a team objective

be responsible for the administrative requirements for a group of up to 30 people

apply safe practices in the workplace

apply and administer codes of conduct and behaviour in the work place

act as a member of a junior management team

care and account for stores and equipment

Hope that helps and good luck

 

[George Wallace]

CanadianBoy92

You have just come off of verbal warning for posting like you have today.  You have been warned of the consequences.  Your next promotion will be from Verbal to C&P or perhaps a complete Ban.  Do You Understand?  

Do not answer this question, but show that you do understand, by reading the forums, more than posting on them.  The answers to your questions are already found in other topics and posts.  Please research them there.

You still have many years to go before you can contemplate joining the Canadian Forces, so conduct your research quietly for a couple of years, and perhaps by then you may have a better picture of what it is that you want.

 

[Dog]

  Roy, I knew I'd get a response like yours... and I knew someone out there would assume I'm merely a promotion-seeking opportunist. Believe me, I'm not, and I realize that not every man who joins the infantry is going to see the rank of WO. If I were interested only in rank and promotions, or working a regular "job behind a desk" I'd join as an officer  .
But I am getting married (no, please... no applause.... oh really... well, thank you very much) and there are most likely kids in the future.... and it just seems to me that after 15 years I'd hope that I'd be able to afford it. While it's not too bad money for someone like myself, I'm looking at being able to care for more than just myself.

I know someone who's been in the reserves for 4-5 years and he's a MCpl... what I'm hearing is that he'll transfer to the RegF and, even if he never gets promoted, he will still outrank me until I'm 40 years old. Would it just be a smarter move for me to get out after my VIE, join the reserves for 5 years and then rejoin the regs?

 

[Roy Harding]

  Roy, I knew I'd get a response like yours... and I knew someone out there would assume I'm merely a promotion-seeking opportunist. Believe me, I'm not, and I realize that not every man who joins the infantry is going to see the rank of WO. If I were interested only in rank and promotions, or working a regular "job behind a desk" I'd join as an officer  .
But I am getting married (no, please... no applause.... oh really... well, thank you very much) and there are most likely kids in the future.... and it just seems to me that after 15 years I'd hope that I'd be able to afford it. While it's not too bad money for someone like myself, I'm looking at being able to care for more than just myself.

I know someone who's been in the reserves for 4-5 years and he's a MCpl... what I'm hearing is that he'll transfer to the RegF and, even if he never gets promoted, he will still outrank me until I'm 40 years old. Would it just be a smarter move for me to get out after my VIE, join the reserves for 5 years and then rejoin the regs?

I'm glad to know I'm predictable.

Read my post again - I did not assume that you were a "promotion-seeking opportunist".  Then read it again, and note what I said about promotions - if you love what you're doing, they will come.

The days of Corporals needing to go to food banks are long past (if they ever actually existed), the wages and benefits of the CF are very good - you certainly won't get rich in the military, but your family will always have a roof over its' head, food in its' belly, and live in fairly comfortable circumstances.  And, should you stay the course, you'll have a pension which is the envy of many civilian wage-slaves.  In other words, you will achieve at least a modest middle-class standard of living.

I don't understand your example of a res MCpl transferring to the regular force (probably in the rank of Cpl, but each case is different), and then outranking you until you're 40 - can you expand on that for me?  It sound like your basing your estimate on unsound assumptions - or I haven't received all the facts.

 

[Patrolman]

DOG,
Getting promoted in the reserves is completly differen't than in the regs. Promotions come fast in the reseI  regsrves not so much in the regs.Transferring from the res to regs won't work either. As mentioned already you will drop in rank and have to prove to your new unit you deserve the promotion, That is of course if they even recognize your courses from the res.
  I did my leadership course after 3 and a half years but based on the promotion system I could not be promoted until I had enough yearly assessments to be merited. The system can be very discouraging for young soldiers wishing to be leaders.
  Sorry to tell you now but the PPCLI tends to progress a lot faster than the RCR.

 

[Dog]

I'm glad to know I'm predictable.

Read my post again - I did not assume that you were a "promotion-seeking opportunist".  Then read it again, and note what I said about promotions - if you love what you're doing, they will come.

The days of Corporals needing to go to food banks are long past (if they ever actually existed), the wages and benefits of the CF are very good - you certainly won't get rich in the military, but your family will always have a roof over its' head, food in its' belly, and live in fairly comfortable circumstances.  And, should you stay the course, you'll have a pension which is the envy of many civilian wage-slaves.  In other words, you will achieve at least a modest middle-class standard of living.

I don't understand your example of a res MCpl transferring to the regular force (probably in the rank of Cpl, but each case is different), and then outranking you until you're 40 - can you expand on that for me?  It sound like your basing your estimate on unsound assumptions - or I haven't received all the facts.

I'm glad that you're glad ...

I'm sure that SOMEONE out there saw my post and thought "promotion-seeking opportunist." who knows....

I do sincerely believe that soldiering is the life for me, so it's good to know that promotions will come with a good work ethic and pleasure in what I do. I don't expect to get rich, but I do want to be able to do what you have stated in your post above, it's good to hear; thanks for your input, it makes me feel better about my choice... something my family has been making me second guess.

As for my example of my friend, the Res Mcpl, transferring to the reg force and outranking me until I'm 40... well if I won't be a Mcpl until I'm 40 (I'll be 25 at the end of BMQ... +15 years to be a Mcpl, as per my example from earlier= 40yrs old) if the res Mcpl transferred he would not be transferring as a private, he says he would be transferring as a Mcpl.... get where my thinking went? So my question (rhetorical, as it's something I will never do) was would I be able to be promoted faster if I left the regs after my VIE, joined the reserves to get promoted much faster, and then transfer back into the Regs?
Patrolman, your post didn't really clear anything up for me... are you saying that regardless of how many courses you have, or how switched on you are, or how good you are... you can not get promoted before a certain time?

 

[CanadianBoy92]

Hey Roy, congratulations on the engagement!

 

[Roy Harding]

Hey Roy, congratulations on the engagement!

???

 

[CanadianBoy92]

Sorry I mean congratulations dog on the engagement. :-[

 

[Roy Harding]

I'm glad that you're glad ...

...

As for my example of my friend, the Res Mcpl, transferring to the reg force and outranking me until I'm 40... well if I won't be a Mcpl until I'm 40 (I'll be 25 at the end of BMQ... +15 years to be a Mcpl, as per my example from earlier= 40yrs old) if the res Mcpl transferred he would not be transferring as a private, he says he would be transferring as a Mcpl.... get where my thinking went? So my question (rhetorical, as it's something I will never do) was would I be able to be promoted faster if I left the regs after my VIE, joined the reserves to get promoted much faster, and then transfer back into the Regs?
Patrolman, your post didn't really clear anything up for me... are you saying that regardless of how many courses you have, or how switched on you are, or how good you are... you can not get promoted before a certain time?

I find it doubtful that a res MCpl would transfer directly as a reg MCpl - not impossible, but unusual.

Promotions are funny things - they depend on your personal qualities and drive, opportunity (IE - getting loaded on the "right" courses), vacancies being available, and a little bit of luck.

My own case may illustrate my point.  I went from Pte to Sgt in 8 years from '82 to '90.  Not bad for a CSS troop.  I then remained a Sgt for 11 years.  In my 19th year of service (2001) I was promoted WO.  A LONG time between promotions.

I have a friend who joined (same trade) at around the same time.  His career was pretty much the inverse of mine at first.  After 12 years he was "still" a Cpl.  Things then started to move, now at the 24 year point (he's still in) he's a WO, looking forward to MWO.

What were the differences??  Opportunity, mostly.  I spent my entire career (with 2 exceptions) in fd units.  He spent most of his (until lately) in Garrison.  For CSS troops there are many more opportunities to "shine" (or "crash and burn") in fd units.  I went on many tours (probably because I was in fd units) - he has one tour in Bosnia.

The point I'm making is this.  In all that time, my friend and I remained friends.  We didn't see each other as being in "competition" with each other, despite what the system might tell you.  We both remained fairly happy (usually) with our lot in life, and were happy with our accomplishments.  When we occasionally got together (geographical separation made this the exception rather than the rule) we respected each other and our various accomplishments.  He knew MUCH, MUCH more than I about R&D, Releases, and Records (the mainstay of our trade) - I knew MUCH more than he about operational planning, fd work, and improvisation.  We both learned from each other.

It's worth noting as well that while I was "hard charging" in the early part of my career my marriage took some extreme hits - I am very lucky to still be married to my very forgiving and understanding wife of 25 years.  If I have regrets, it's that I wasn't around much to help raise our three boys - she did a damned good job without me.  My friend, on the other hand, was usually home, involved with raising his family, and has a relationship with his kids that I admire.

I don't recommend your thoughts of "component hopping" from Reg to Res and back.  Despite what you've told me, I'd be extremely surprised if your MCpl friend actually transfers into Reg as a MCpl - unless he has a whack of Reg force courses and Class C under his belt.  Why don't you sit back and watch what actually happens when his transfer comes in?

In the meantime - love and enjoy what you do, you'll be a happier man (and a better soldier) for it.

Good luck to you.

Edit:  grammar