Question about Navy response to natural disasters

[Bass ackwards]

I've always had a fascination with ships.
Some time ago I looked through the threads on Katrina for information on this -to no avail-  and hopefully the topic is a bit more germane in light of the earthquake in Haiti.
My question is this:

When combatant ships (CPFs, 280s) are responding to a natural disaster, what are they capable of carrying as far as supplies go?
From my limited knowledge, warships aren't noted for having a lot of unused space.
So what can/do they carry with them in terms of foodstuffs, portable shelter, medical supplies, etc?

 

[armyvern]

We cleaned out our MSA in Gagetown. Tents (of all types), cots, sleeping bags, blankets, IMPs, generators, etc etc and trucked it all to Halifax for loading - Op Unison.

Perhaps there's a sailor about the forum who was actually involved in the loading process ... but I do know that it was CCGS Sir William Alexander that was laden down with a vast array of the stuff that our base sent. It's our AORs that can carry extra eqpt, stores etc ... but none were avail for Katrina. ... BHS - haven't heard anything on those Big Honking Ships we decided we needed years ago.  :-\

But, the following link does contain some points on the logistics of it all, starts on page 30.

http://naval.review.cfps.dal.ca/archive/5636123-4882858/vol1num4.pdf

http://geo.international.gc.ca/world/site/includes/print.asp?lang=en&print=1&url=%2Fcan-am%2Fmain%2Ffront_page%2Fkatrina-en.asp

http://www.johnmckaymp.on.ca/newsshow.asp?int_id=80290

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina



edited for page #

 

[Antoine]

Interesting question, by "googling" HMCS Halifax, HMCS Athabaskan and following the news you'll find some of the goods they are going to ship.

Also in the following thread:

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/91568/post-904363#new

quoted from today's [ur=http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9014787.htmll]Chronicle Herald[/url] in Halifax

and more might appear in other threads later on.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Hi Vern.
Thanks very much for the links.
I figured during Katrina that the Alexander would be carrying a lot of the supplies (IIRC, the larger Canadian Coast Guard ships generally have cargo holds).

I'll be curious to hear from some of the Navy guys as to how they go about cramming stuff into a frigate or destroyer.

Antoine: Thanks. I've been following the thread here, on the disaster. I'll try your google suggestion re the actual ships. 

 

[Otis]

I'll be curious to hear from some of the Navy guys as to how they go about cramming stuff into a frigate or destroyer.

You use as much space as you can, everywhere you can.

I have heard stories of Navy people (Supply Techs) on course catching hell when planning usage of a warehouse because the exercise was designed to force you to use outside space or resources and the Navy guys always make it all fit on the one warehouse.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

How much room is left in the hanger on the flight deck after the air det is there?

 

[Occam]

How much room is left in the hanger on the flight deck after the air det is there?

Not a hell of a lot.  Between the helicopters themselves, and the associated spare parts boxes that get aeroquip-strapped to the bulkheads, there's very little room.  However, I have only seen reports that HMCS Halifax is taking on a helicopter - I haven't seen anything indicating that HMCS Athabaskan will.  If she doesn't embark helos, that's space for two helicopters that can be used for storage, and that's a lot of storage space.

As well as space in the existing storerooms on the ships, other spaces can be used for storage.  For example, there are decontamination stations (airlocks and cleansing stations for going through a CBRN environment) that can be used to store stuff.  There are equipment rooms that have a fair amount of free space.  Stuff can always get strapped to the upper deck, so long as it doesn't interfere with linehandling or other seamanship evolutions and can be exposed to the weather.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Stuff can always get strapped to the upper deck, so long as it doesn't interfere with linehandling or other seamanship evolutions and can be exposed to the weather.

Can you do much of that before you start to have stability issues?
I can look at the specs and see the displacement of a vessel, but I have no idea how that relates to how much you can stack on the upper deck.
I do recall reading that the Tribals (280s) were pretty top-heavy at the best of times.

Again (if it needs to be said), I'm asking out of sheer curiosity -not to argue the point. 

 

[armyvern]

You use as much space as you can, everywhere you can.

I have heard stories of Navy people (Supply Techs) on course catching hell when planning usage of a warehouse because the exercise was designed to force you to use outside space or resources and the Navy guys always make it all fit on the one warehouse.

LOL. Matters not the element - we ALL try to do that during that particular bit of the course when building the warehouse ... and the staff doesn't take well to us trying to use our "extra space inside the warehouse [cause there is lots of that extra space]" to store generators, heaters etc that by regulation need to be stored in an out building quite seperate from MSA/rations etc.

I tried too. As did everyone else - it makes for a whole lot less "contractors" to hire, a whole lot less"security and fire inspections" to book/do, an easy ability to ensure we stayed within our approved budget, and about 60 less power point slides to go through when you're in front of the Comdt and all his guests presenting your "new" warehouse.  >

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Even if the generators, heaters, etc are purged and in thier shipping crates/ transport boxes?

 

[armyvern]

Even if the generators, heaters, etc are purged and in thier shipping crates/ transport boxes?

Food & water, hazmat, radioactive ... we have shitlods of items that can not, by regulation, be stored within "X feet etc" of Commodity Y.

In order to actually do what we all try ... you have to cheat on that "proximity of storrage" bit.  8)

And, because the actual square footage of the warehouse we have to plan and build is a "GIVEN" ... they damn well know that we can't put it all in.  Also "GIVEN" are all the SNs, qtys etc. So they know we have incompatable commodities and are going to have to plan for outside storrage too.

 

[Occam]

Can you do much of that before you start to have stability issues?
I can look at the specs and see the displacement of a vessel, but I have no idea how that relates to how much you can stack on the upper deck.
I do recall reading that the Tribals (280s) were pretty top-heavy at the best of times.

Again (if it needs to be said), I'm asking out of sheer curiosity -not to argue the point.

Yep, the 280s were, and still are pretty top-heavy, although I think they mitigated some of the problem by going with water-compensated fuel tanks post-TRUMP.  I would be way out of my area of expertise to tell you if extra kit would end up being a factor, but I do know that the MSEO and the Hull Techs have all sorts of stability formulae which I'm sure could be used to figure it out.  They have to have formulae like that available in the event that a compartment got flooded due to grounding or battle damage.  They would also have a pretty good idea of how much extra stuff (by weight) is brought aboard.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Thanks Occam.
I'm glad I finally posted this question -it's been an interesting discussion. I'll look forward to picking it up again tomorrow evening (I have to get up at oh-dark-hundred for work).
Good night all.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

The 280's are ok with two helos in a fairly bad storm. As long as you kept the supplies in the hangars/flight decks to the 20 ton range, they'd be fine.

20 tons isn't much though.

 

[Navy_Blue]

I still don't understand why we're not sending the tanker or our JSS....Wait that's right the tanker is a museum piece that can barely start her boiler without a seance...Darn we didn't think we needed to start building ours JSS yet.  Oh well maybe next Earth Quake   

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The 280's are ok with two helos in a fairly bad storm. As long as you kept the supplies in the hangars/flight decks to the 20 ton range, they'd be fine.

20 tons isn't much though.

The 280s have not deployed with 2 helos in a long time.

20 tonnes can be a lot depending on what it is. Don't be so dismissive of our efforts and the hard work we all did getting the Athabaskan and Halifax ready for their deployment to Haiti.

I'll be curious to hear from some of the Navy guys as to how they go about cramming stuff into a frigate or destroyer.

You do it creatively and as long as you secure it properly and place in where it will not interfere with other evolutions onboard ship, you can store a lot more then some will lead you to think.

From my limited knowledge, warships aren't noted for having a lot of unused space

You would be surprised on how much space we actually do have, its a lot more then most think.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

The 280s have not deployed with 2 helos in a long time.

No, but helos have broken down while they're "visiting", and left the 280's carrying two of them.

20 tonnes can be a lot depending on what it is. Don't be so dismissive of our efforts and the hard work we all did getting the Athabaskan and Halifax ready for their deployment to Haiti.

20 tons is about 2% of an AOR's dry cargo capacity. I'm sure you worked hard, and it'll help the Haitians a lot, but it's a comparatively small amount.

 

[Bass ackwards]

Just to pick on one item: water*.

The news article mentions bottled water being carried. I take it we're talking about the normal, round, 5 gallon bottles that you see in office coolers everywhere.
Would these have to be stored low in the ship or is this less of an issue with something the size and displacement of a frigate?
If they are stored below the waterline, do you have hatches (trunks? is that the proper term?) and hoists available to get them below or is it all done by a human chain? Down all those bloody steep ladders!?
Is there a way of palatalizing them so they can be stacked (yet still gotten aboard at all)?

In a similar vein, do the ships themselves have the capability of purifying extra water (beyond the needs of the crew) and is that even feasible while in a harbour?

*If I'm being annoying here, someone tell me to shut up and I will. As I mentioned, it's a subject that really interests me and unfortunately I'm not in the geographic position to be able to pour rum into Navy.ca members while I ask ten thousand stupid questions about every little detail.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

They are bring water as in the 500ml bottle variety, the DART team should/will bring in the Advanced ROWPU and hopefully the water bagger too.....

 

[Occam]

Just to pick on one item: water*.

The news article mentions bottled water being carried. I take it we're talking about the normal, round, 5 gallon bottles that you see in office coolers everywhere.
Would these have to be stored low in the ship or is this less of an issue with something the size and displacement of a frigate?
If they are stored below the waterline, do you have hatches (trunks? is that the proper term?) and hoists available to get them below or is it all done by a human chain? Down all those bloody steep ladders!?
Is there a way of palatalizing them so they can be stacked (yet still gotten aboard at all)?

In a similar vein, do the ships themselves have the capability of purifying extra water (beyond the needs of the crew) and is that even feasible while in a harbour?

*If I'm being annoying here, someone tell me to shut up and I will. As I mentioned, it's a subject that really interests me and unfortunately I'm not in the geographic position to be able to pour rum into Navy.ca members while I ask ten thousand stupid questions about every little detail.

More than likely, the water would be in 1 litre or 650 ml bottles like you buy in the supermarket.  In a case, wrapped in plastic.  The bottles are easily carried and refilled.  Those large jugs would be impossible to store on a ship, and dispensing the water is problematic.

There is a conveyor which will bring caselot items from the weatherdeck level down to fridge flats, but it's only convenient if that's where you're storing it.  If it's going anywhere else, everyone forms a line, and the stuff gets passed hand to hand wherever it's going in the ship.  Ladders are easy to negotiate, you just put one or two people on them, and stuff gets passed between them.  Rotate the guys on the ladders as necessary.

The ships have desalinators for domestic water.  I'm not sure if they're bringing them along, but there are also portable reverse osmosis desalination units (aka "RODs") available which can be fed from an upper deck fire hydrant (which is fed from a seawater firemain system).  The clean water is dumped into a huge portable tank for later use.  The RODs can be taken ashore for use as well, if there is a water supply available.  I can't recall if they require power or not...

They are bring water as in the 500ml bottle variety, the DART team should/will bring in the Advanced ROWPU and hopefully the water bagger too.....

The one(s) the Navy has (had?) were somewhat simpler than that - although they may have gone the way of the dodo and something more modern put in its place.  Last time I saw a portable ROD on a ship was 17 years ago.