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Ranking females in the Canadian Army...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mhorydyn
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For the Naval side of the house, Sir or Ma'am is never used for Snr NCO's.

Petty Officer 1st Class and Petty Officer 2nd Class are normally called "PO's"
Chief Petty Officer 1st Class and Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class are normally called "Chiefs"
Additionally, a Chief Petty Officer 1st Class can also be referred to as Coxswain if he holds that position.
 
pbi said:
I have spent a few years in Inf battalions and I can assure you that the CSMs and the QMSI are most definitely called "sir"   by the people below them. And, yes, you're right: all Army MWOs are not Sgts Maj: that wasn't my point. My point was that the person in the post was identified as "SSM" which to me means   "Squadron Sgt Maj". Now, most Sgts Maj that I have had the pleasure to know are quite proud of their appointment title and don't really want to be called "MWO".

Cheers.

Never said its wasn't done.  Just that it was incorrect.

It is definately easier to say "Yes sir" rather than "Yes Master Warrent Officer" in casual conversation and I think most MWO/WOs realize that.  It's a matter of real life, in the form of convienence or tradition, trumping the regulations.

Does the Air Force have Sgt Majors?  ... Actually  come to think of it it does or at least did, I know an ex-armoured fellow who was an Air Observer and has a jacket from 427 Sqn embriodered with SSM on the sleeve, he was the Sqadron Sgt Maj.  However he was Army.  I know the observers are gone, but what about the other cbt arms pers posted to Tac Hel Sqns, are they any sort of Sgt Maj?  Are pers who wear the Air Force uniform called Sgt Maj in any appointment when working within an Air Force unit?

Its all so confusing...and really, if you are respectful and only make a mistake once regarding someones appointment, ragging someone out just shows pettiness and possibly insecurity.
 
I'm not going to say what came to mind when i saw the title of this thread.

Re addressing MWOs, CWOs (or our naval equivalent,) when in doubt a simple God, or God Almighty will usually suffice. 8)

Seriously as a former MWO and CSM I personally disliked being called â Å“Sirâ ? (aside from times on Parade when protocol deemed it appropriate) however I don't think I ever jacked anyone up for it. I preferred â Å“S'arnt Majorâ ?  from subordinates and â Å“CSMâ ? from superiors like the OC.

Off duty (mess, private functions) I was on a first name basis with most of the OC's I had as well as my Senior NCO's. Mind that was just me.
 
Danjanou said:
I'm not going to say what came to mind when i saw the title of this thread.

Re addressing MWOs, CWOs (or our naval equivalent,) when in doubt a simple God, or God Almighty will usually suffice. 8)

Seriously as a former MWO and CSM I personally disliked being called â Å“Sirâ ? (aside from times on Parade when protocol deemed it appropriate) however I don't think I ever jacked anyone up for it. I preferred â Å“S'arnt Majorâ ?   from subordinates and â Å“CSMâ ? from superiors like the OC.

Off duty (mess, private functions) I was on a first name basis with most of the OC's I had as well as my Senior NCO's. Mind that was just me.

I was once chastised for referring to a MWO as "Sergeant Major"....too weird.  And not by him, either, but by an officer who witnessed it.
 
The rule, for the Army, used to be, ranks from LCpl through to SSgt/CSgt were addressed by rank, usually abbreviated, unless they held an appointment, i.e. a LBdr was referred to as â Å“Bombardierâ ? and a SSgt as â Å“Staffâ ?.   WO2s and WO1s were addressed, by their junior, as â Å“Sirâ ? â “ both ranks, without fail.   Officers and warrant officers addressed WO2s by appointment, â Å“CSMâ ? for â Å“RQâ ?.   WO1s were addressed, by officers, as Mr. Hill or Mr. Juteau, etc, even when they were the RSM.   There were, I think, two or three exceptions: some Master Gunners and every RCOC Conductor and RCEME Artificer I ever met wanted to be addressed as â Å“Master Gunnerâ ? or â Å“Conductorâ ? etc â “ one WO1 Artificer said, to me â “ a very young officer â “ â Å“it's OK, Sir: Tiffy Brown will do nicely, it'll save you trying to wrap your tongue around artificer without spitting at me.â ?

There were, still were later in the British Army, many appointments.   In my outer office in a large NATO HQ in Europe sat a SSgt, RSigs, and behind a 'green door' were his specialist operators and one comm circuit.   He was a Yeoman of Signals â “ a top of the trade skill heap specialist â “ and he was addressed by everyone, including corporals as â Å“Yeoman Boadimeade,â ? never as â Å“Staff Boadimeadeâ ? except by a few strangers who didn't bother to read his desk plate which said (something like) SSgt (YofS) Boadimeade.   There was a similar thing for signals technicians but they â “ the top of the technical trades heap â “ were addressed, by subordinates and superiors alike as â Å“Foreman.â ?

As I understood the Navy, of my time, it was worth your skin to ever call any chief petty officer â Å“Sir,â ? â “ I seem to recall that they took great delight in humiliating ignorant young soldiers.

To answer a question: the Air Force had an appointment of Station Warrant Officer and some were quite fierce disciplinarians and very good drill and duties men.
 
Around Borden it used to be the School CWO (SCWO) for the different Schools, not sure what the current standard is but I believe ours is now refereed to as the Academy CWO. 


Anecdote to follow:  When I was a young PAT at our school the first time I was sent to stores it was by the SCWO and I was not looking forward to the experience as the civie storesman had a reputation of being a total knob to PATs making life miserable just for kicks.  So I walk in, he sees me, scowls and yells, "What?!" and being from the good Army background I said, "The RSM sent me over to get a widget."  His eyes went wide and he thundered, "What did you just say?!" and I replied "I need a widget." and he goes, "No, who did you say it was for?!".  I thought real quick and went, "Ohoh...now I've done it, I should have said SCWO but there's no backing out" so I blurted out, "The RSM?" and this huge grin spread across his face and he started to laugh, "My son, I haven't heard a CWO called that since I left the Guards and you've just made my day...".  Never had a problem with the guy after that.
 
The whole WO/MWO/CWO/CSM/RSM/QM thing seems to be a sticky issue. While most WOs prefer simply "Warrant", I've had some who wanted to be called "Sir". Likewise, called a CSM MWO "Sir" and was jacked up. He wanted to be called "Sergeant Major". Another time I called a CSM WO "Sergeant Major" and he wanted to be called "Warrant". Some want the rank, some want the appointment, and some want the "Sir/Ma'am" thing. There seems to be no standard, so I make it a habit to ASK what they would like to be called. Prefereably before getting jacked.
 
There was a guy on my MWO course from the Service Bn in Toronto who was on Class B at the Staff College. He had the best what do we call you story.

This was back when we were all wearing the rank on the slip ons on our shoulders, remember all the fun that was. Well naturally as a WO he kept getting mistaken by some of the Commonwealth officers who were students  there for a Major.

He was one of the most easy going guys I knew (we worked together years later when I moved up to Toronto and joined the Tor Scots) After patiently explaining to some poor soul for the umpteenth time that he was a Warrant Officer he finally gave up and said â Å“just call me Bernieâ ? (his first name).

A few days later he got dragged into the Commandant's office and told that he singlehandedly had confused the bulk of the allied officers they were training. They were now convinced that the CF rank structure went: Pte, Cpl, M/Cpl, Sgt, Bernie, Master Bernie, and Chief Bernie.  

Oh yeah he passed the course. Years later one of my first duties as a Tor Scot was to attend 25 Svc Bn's Sgt's Mess Annual Dinner for my RSM and I bumped into him there for the first time since the post grad party in Halifax and he was now an MWO, or perhaps a Master Bernie. ;D ;D

 
I remember getting screamed at by a female master warrant officer or chief warrant officer (I can't recall which now).   usually when i screw up i know exactly what i did. In this case i was 200% caught off guard and looking around to see if it was a practical joke, which as you can imagine upset her more. Apparently when troops passed her, she wanted troops to stop in the hallway, come to attention and greet her.
"Good morning/afternoon chief warrant officer"
When she would reply "whatever" she would then give the troop permission to leave.

naturally as a visitor to that armories I had no clue that said SNCO had some kind of special SOP when passing her. Besides it being a rather fruity SOP in my opinion, it irks me a little when leaders come down on troops like the hammer of god for a simple mistake.

I've said 'yes sir' to a female officer by mistake, same as calling a sgt or warrant 'sir' by accident. The old "Dont call me sir, i work for a living har har" line is a little over used but gets the point across. Going off on a troop like be just burnt a canadian flag for making that common mistake isn't so cool. Then again i'm just a corporal. I get a kick out of people saluting me by accident when i carry around my laptop.
:salute:
 
My g/f was working in the UMS clinic the other day in civies (of course) and some troop saluted her.  She had no idea what to say.  I told her that if she had it happen again she should tell them "carry on". :)
 
Ghost778 said:
I remember getting screamed at by a female master warrant officer or chief warrant officer (I can't recall which now).   usually when i screw up i know exactly what i did. In this case i was 200% caught off guard and looking around to see if it was a practical joke, which as you can imagine upset her more. Apparently when troops passed her, she wanted troops to stop in the hallway, come to attention and greet her.
"Good morning/afternoon chief warrant officer"
When she would reply "whatever" she would then give the troop permission to leave.

People like this take themselves too seriously.

I wonder how said MWO would feel if a 2nd Lieutenant stood her at attention and proceeded to yell at her for not doing some quirky salutation.

Colonel Glover Johns Rule of Leadership #12:

13. Yelling detracts from your dignity; take men aside to counsel them.

 
Navalsnipr said:
For the Naval side of the house, Sir or Ma'am is never used for Snr NCO's.

Petty Officer 1st Class and Petty Officer 2nd Class are normally called "PO's"
Chief Petty Officer 1st Class and Chief Petty Officer 2nd Class are normally called "Chiefs"
Additionally, a Chief Petty Officer 1st Class can also be referred to as Coxswain if he holds that position.

Ahhh.... yes. But what about the "Buffer"!!! 
 
whiskey 601 said:
Ahhh.... yes. But what about the "Buffer"!!!

That brings up another point regarding the Navy. Many will call the person by their position onboard a ship. This is normally done to eliminate confusion.

Some examples being:

  Engines - MSE Officer
  Buffer - Senior Boson
  Combat - Combat Officer
  Yeoman - Senior Bridge NAVCOMM
 
The YEOMAN and POTEL titles have gone by the wayside due to the amalgamation of the Signalman and the Radio Operator trades in the navy.  Basically the PO1 is just called the Senior NavComm now.


Another interesting tidbit - I beleive on a sub, the Combat Chief (Ops chief) is refered to as "Chops" ?  Correct me if I am wrong here.


 
who980 said:
The YEOMAN and POTEL titles have gone by the wayside due to the amalgamation of the Signalman and the Radio Operator trades in the navy.   Basically the PO1 is just called the Senior NavComm now.

Very true, but many CO's still prefer to call the Snr NAVCOM the Yeoman while so employed on the bridge
 
Navalsnipr said:
That brings up another point regarding the Navy. Many will call the person by their position onboard a ship. This is normally done to eliminate confusion.

Some examples being:

  Engines - MSE Officer
  Buffer - Senior Boson
  Combat - Combat Officer
  Yeoman - Senior Bridge NAVCOMM

What about Chief ERA (chief engineering room articifer?)
 
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