Rations, Meal Halls ect... Merged

[PMedMoe]

How much were you compensated, if you do not mind me asking?

The normal meal rate, whatever that is. 

At any rate, this is getting slightly off topic.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The normal meal rate, whatever that is. 

At any rate, this is getting slightly off topic.

Oh no, no it's not.

Your in the medical field, How much does a field bandage cost?

Maybe Vern, can help, but what about one single Nato 5.56 round, a Battery for a radio, a litre of Chopper fuel....

I may be using the old "If a butterfly flaps it's wing" analogy, however, there is a reason to look at not scamming the system in that sense.

dileas

tess

 

[exgunnertdo]

2 more "for instances", both from our last move (administered by IRP, but still TB policy)

Our hotel included breakfast.  On the morning of our load, we were told to be at the house by 0800 to meet the truck.  We left our hotel room in plenty of time to have a reasonable breakfast with our two small children in the hotel breakfast room.  Just before we got there, an entire bus tour's worth of people had just sat down to eat - the place was packed, not a seat in the place.  We could wait for probably 20-30 minutes for a table to open up, and be late for our timing at the house, or drive through McDonald's, and eat sitting among the boxes in our already packed kitchen.  We did McD's, saved the receipts and it was allowed.  Mind you, the truck didn't show until nearly 11, but we were there by 0800, as instructed.

Hotel at destination - provided breakfast for one person per room.  Government rate, it's based on a business traveller, not a family.  We had two rooms, so two breakfasts, for our family of 4.  But the restaurant was not in any way kid friendly.  Full of business type folks, quietly reading their paper, working on laptops.  My kids were wired after a week of upheaval, excited cause we were getting to our new house, and I really didn't feel like spending the whole meal of time shushing them.  So we went somewhere else and said to ourselves that we would be fine if the IPR rep denied the meal.  She allowed it, with the receipt.

 

[the 48th regulator]

2 more "for instances", both from our last move (administered by IRP, but still TB policy)

Our hotel included breakfast.  On the morning of our load, we were told to be at the house by 0800 to meet the truck.  We left our hotel room in plenty of time to have a reasonable breakfast with our two small children in the hotel breakfast room.  Just before we got there, an entire bus tour's worth of people had just sat down to eat - the place was packed, not a seat in the place.  We could wait for probably 20-30 minutes for a table to open up, and be late for our timing at the house, or drive through McDonald's, and eat sitting among the boxes in our already packed kitchen.  We did McD's, saved the receipts and it was allowed.  Mind you, the truck didn't show until nearly 11, but we were there by 0800, as instructed.

Hotel at destination - provided breakfast for one person per room.  Government rate, it's based on a business traveller, not a family.  We had two rooms, so two breakfasts, for our family of 4.  But the restaurant was not in any way kid friendly.  Full of business type folks, quietly reading their paper, working on laptops.  My kids were wired after a week of upheaval, excited cause we were getting to our new house, and I really didn't feel like spending the whole meal of time shushing them.  So we went somewhere else and said to ourselves that we would be fine if the IPR rep denied the meal.  She allowed it, with the receipt.

Meal and mileage rates for DND are set by the Treasury Board.  As stated above, If breakfast is provided by the hotel, you cannot claim it.  However, if you feel that the meal was insufficient, such as a muffin and coffee, you can buy more and, with receipt, claim it up to the maximum TB rate for that meal.  You may also be required to sign a statement to the fact that the provided hotel meal was not acceptable.

You made an effort, and did your due diligence, wouldn't you agree?  Had you been asked ,you would have been able to provide a reasonable statement, explaining the challenges.

Saying I did not know it was included, and I heard that it gave people a tummy ache, won't get you off;  That is what my point is through out the thread.

dileas

tess

 

[PMedMoe]

I may be using the old "If a butterfly flaps it's wing" analogy, however, there is a reason to look at not scamming the system in that sense.

I never said anything about "scamming" the system.  I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth.  It was an honest mistake and the claims section accepted it.  I got the full meal rate (not sure what the amount for breakfast is - $15.00?).  The people who ate breakfast at the hotel and claimed it are scamming the system., IMO.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I never said anything about "scamming" the system.  I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth.  It was an honest mistake and the claims section accepted it.  I got the full meal rate (not sure what the amount for breakfast is - $15.00?).  The people who ate breakfast at the hotel and claimed it are scamming the system., IMO.

:-\

I am not putting words in your mouth, they are my own.  I am standing here pointing at you with an accusatory (Dang Moe, can you imagine me saying such a big word...) finger.  You were allowed the claim because the claims people believed that you used your best judgment when you were spending Crown money.  Those people that ate and did the same as you are just as guilty.  It may seem a like a trivial point, and yes it may seem like an honest mistake.  However, it is not acceptable, nor is it legal in the sense of the Treasury Board.

Moe, I am not "Picking" on you, but with the way that DND is slashing left, right, and centre, every dollar counts.  You passing the buck by saying that it was an honest mistake, and passing the blame to the claims people since they approved it, does not wash.  This is not something we should be promoting.

I still dig you though  :-*

dileas

tess

 

[captloadie]

In the OP example, just because it doesn't say so on the receipt doesn't mean it isn't included. Hotels often bury the cost of the breakfast in the nightly charge. The hotel in Koln, as it is with many European hotels, was a good example of how they have 2 different rates, one that includes breakfast and one that doesn't. They often don't indicate it on the receipt.

From a financial perspective, units will often try to book members into hotels that include breakfast it is normally cheaper than paying a night at a hotel and a separate breakfast. In Canada, breakfast entitlement is $13.50 I believe, no receipt required, but in many European cities, if it is not by receipt, it is much more (15-20 Euros).

As an exfin guy, I never had a heart ache when someone brought in a receipt for a meal,  because he incurred a cost. It really burned me thoguh when guys did their best to screw the system and just pocket the cash.

 

 

[PMedMoe]

I am not putting words in your mouth, they are my own.  I am standing here pointing at you with an accusatory (Dang Moe, can you imagine me saying such a big word...) finger.

Good enough, and no, I can't.  Did you eat a bowl of alphabet soup? 

Those people that ate and did the same as you are just as guilty.

I beg to differ.  I think they're guiltier (more guilty?) as they claimed for a meal they had already received, whereas I claimed for a meal that I had to purchase.

However, it is not acceptable, nor is it legal in the sense of the Treasury Board.

Oh please, let's not even go there.  Go check out the IR thread and see how much a public servant gets for rent compared to those of us in the CF.  What about all the politicians having their weekend travel home compensated for?  What about the RCMP who get high rate of mileage on their moves where we only get the low rate?  If you want to point accusatory fingers, why isn't everyone the same across the board if all of this is based on the Treasury Board??

This is not something we should be promoting.

I agree.  Really, my situation is quite minor compared to others who have frauded the government out of thousands of dollars and gotten away with it.  People who claim they drove for LTA and get XXX amount of dollars when in reality, they flew for less than half of what they received, comes to mind.  :

I still dig you though  :-*

I dig you, too, tess.  :-* 

 

[ballz]

People who claim they drove for LTA and get XXX amount of dollars when in reality, they flew

** I never thought of that! Can't wait till next xmas (my next of kin live on other side of the country...) Oh army.ca you've taught me so many great lessons.

I kid, I kid... I never thought of that scheme but I have noticed other possible ones. I'm not sure how people can live with that. People die in this business because of a lack of funds...

 

[Zoomie]

  Go check out the IR thread and see how much a public servant gets for rent compared to those of us in the CF.  What about all the politicians having their weekend travel home compensated for?  What about the RCMP who get high rate of mileage on their moves where we only get the low rate? 

Unless those public servants are governed under a different TB - the rental allowance for IR is the same in the CF.  Max allowable is $1090/month.

RegF members can have mileage compensated too - just needs to be organized.

RCMP and CF members have the exact same move package.  CF members get high rate for moving.

I spend quite a few days on the road on TD with my students.  We book our hotels and some of them provide a full breakfast.  The cost of a hotel that provides a breakfast and one that does not is not a huge difference.  If my students feel that they were adequately nourished by their meal, no claim is made for the breakfast.  When we stay in Calgary, we stop at Timmies on the way to the FBO - get our stuff and move on.  Claim is made for full breakfast amount - no receipts required.  Even if the hotel provides a full breakfast au gratis - if we decide that we are going somewhere else - we claim.  There is not a directive anywhere that states we must eat the provided food.

 

[the 48th regulator]

There is not a directive anywhere that states we must eat the provided food.

I beg to differ;

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/db-as/cft-ifc/index-eng.asp

Canadian Forces Temporary Duty Travel Instruction, 22 July 2007 (DOC Version, 459.50 KB)

Again, it is states;

Section - 6 - Travel Outside the Headquarters Area – No overnight stay
6.10 Meals

(1) A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance rates set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD. A meal allowance shall not be paid to a member with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.  Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.

(2) A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance for each breakfast, lunch and dinner provided that:

a) for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs;

b) for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and

c) for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.

(3) A member who is on duty between 1900 hours and 0730 hours for four hours or greater is entitled to be reimbursed, with receipts, actual and reasonable expenses not exceeding the amount payable for a lunch, for a single night meal, when the CO considers that the purchase of the meal was necessary to ensure the proper performance of the duty.

(4) Reimbursement of meals for shift workers shall be based on the meal sequence of breakfast, lunch and dinner in relation to the commencement of the CF member’s shift.


Section 7 – Travel in Canada/Continental USA – Overnight stay

7.10 Meals

(1) A member is entitled to reimbursement for the applicable meal allowance rates as set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD. Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.  A member is not entitled to reimbursement with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.

(2) A member is entitled to reimbursement provided that:
a) for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs

b) for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and

c) for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.

(3) If it is determined that no meals were provided on a flight, a member is entitled to claim the per diem meal rate without receipts.  However, where a member considers that a meal was insufficient, receipts are required for the alternate meal consumed.  Substantiation must be provided to the approving authority before the meal expense is reimbursed.  Snacks, i.e., pretzels, peanuts and chips do not constitute a meal.

(4) If a member declines a meal included in the travel or conference package and seeks reimbursement for an alternate meal, the member must provide written substantiation to the approving authority for refusal.

(5) It is the member’s personal responsibility to provide advance notice to the airlines or other appropriate service providers, to ensure that their religious beliefs or dietary requirements can be accommodated.

(6) For TD travel in the USA, the rate payable shall be in US funds.

(7) In accordance with CFAOs 28-1 and 209-4 http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/028-01_e.asp and http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/209-04_e.asp, rations shall be utilized where available.  When a member is in US military quarters without cooking facilities and access to rations the member shall receive full per diem for the first thirty (30) days.  Thereafter a member is eligible for seventy-five per cent (75%) of meals and seventy-five per cent (75%) of incidentals.  Meals claimed while a member is provided free rations and quarters must be accompanied by a receipt as well as the rationale for not utilizing the rations.

(8) If a member has no choice but to reside in commercial accommodations without cooking facilities for the duration of the duty travel, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rates.  However, if the member selects to reside in private vice commercial accommodation, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rates for the first thirty (30) days and seventy-five percent (75%) thereafter.

(9) If a member occupies US military, corporate, government or school residences, apartment hotels or similar type accommodation with cooking facilities or non-commercial accommodation, the member is entitled to the full per diem meal rate for the initial thirty (30) days.  Thereafter, a member is entitled to be paid seventy five percent (75%) of the daily meal allowance for the remainder of the TD period.






Section 8 Overnight Stay outside of Canada

8.10 Meals

(1) A member is entitled to the applicable foreign meal allowance rates for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD as specified in the TB Daily Meal Rates at Locations Abroad, Appendix D, which is found at the following website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp.  The TB meal rate is based on the usage of full commercial meal facilities.  However, if no meal allowance has been established for a given country or where sudden changes in currency exchange rates or high inflationary trends may invalidate the specified meal allowance, a member is entitled to be reimbursed actual and reasonable expenses, based on receipts.

(2) Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.  A member is not entitled to reimbursement with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency or where the meal was included in the price of the accommodation, i.e., breakfast.

I am not trying to be facetious or anal, however there are rules in place.  Getting reimbursement for meals that were not entitled has being going on since the First Roman Centurion came up with the idea.

dileas

tess

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I just take all my receipts and let the OR staff figure it out....

 

[armyvern]

I am not trying to be facetious or anal, however there are rules in place.  Getting reimbursement for meals that were not entitled has being going on since the First Roman Centurion came up with the idea.

dileas

tess

You're correct Tess,

A member should not, IAW regulations, be claiming a meal that was provided by a caterer, included in the price of the hotel etc. If the meal was provided - the only way that they should then be claiming is with a receipt if they believed that the meal was "insufficient." In that case, the full meal rate for meal "X" is not reimbursable, but only the actual cost of the meal as indicated on the receipt.

When I go to conferences & stay in hotels, the lunch meal is usually provided by a caterer via buffet or otherwise. I am not entitled to claim for lunch, nor do I. I once did file a claim, as the lunch provided was on a Friday ... mostly consisting of fish & no one could assure me that the other items (non-fish) provided by the caterer were not fish-contaminated --- I am allergic to fish. I bought my lunch from the hotel restaurant and submitted with my claim upon my return from the conference; I was reimbursed the exact dollar value of that meal - no more, no less. No problem.

 

[PMedMoe]

Unless those public servants are governed under a different TB - the rental allowance for IR is the same in the CF.  Max allowable is $1090/month.

Really?  I get $1600/month for rent.  I'm pretty sure it varies by location.

My mistake, it wasn't PS but CBSA.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91767.0

 

[Zoomie]

Really?  I get $1600/month for rent.  I'm pretty sure it varies by location.

Interesting - is that $1600 inclusive for rent and furnishings - or does it also include food?  We have quite a number of members out here at the school living on IR from Winnipeg.  They can submit receipts to a maximum of $1090/month to cover rent and furniture.  They get another $500-600 in other funds too.

Thanks for the reference Tess - conferences and all inclusive resorts aside, hotels that provide "breakfast" don't quite meet the requisites listed above.  If I could pay a lower night stay that was without breakfast included - then the reference would be valid.  Since this food is provided more as a marketing tool, the cost is not really covered by the accommodation cost.  That being said, if I eat the food in the hotel and it suffices - I do not claim breakfast.  If I decide that I would rather go to the Denny's across the street - that too is my prerogative.

 

[PMedMoe]

Interesting - is that $1600 inclusive for rent and furnishings - or does it also include food?  We have quite a number of members out here at the school living on IR from Winnipeg.  They can submit receipts to a maximum of $1090/month to cover rent and furniture.  They get another $500-600 in other funds too.

$1600 for a furnished apartment, including utilities.  $100 for parking.  Add another $500-600 for food/separation allowance.  As I said, I believe the rates are different for each area.

 

[armyvern]

$1600 for a furnished apartment, including utilities.  $100 for parking.  Add another $500-600 for food/separation allowance.  As I said, I believe the rates are different for each area.

Correct - the maximum amount varies on location. I got a max of 1080/month in PEI for a furnished apartment. Mine only cost 1000, so I was only re-imbursed 1000. Wasn't reimbursed parking as it was provided free of charge. Add on to that 1000 whatever the going rate was then for high rate SA to pay for my food, cable etc

 

[CountDC]

Actually, if it doesn't show up on the hotel bill and it's not known that the hotel provides a breakfast, you can indeed claim that meal.  Is it ethical?  I'll leave that up to the individual.  Not to mention, some hotel "breakfasts" are a muffin and a coffee.  :

Forget ethic shall we talk legal??

If you are provided a meal and then claim it you are committing fraud and yes there are some of us that checks on these things when you send us a claim for approval.

If it is just a muffin and coffee then fine, buy some bacon and eggs and claim it, put a note that breakfast provided was not satisfactory as it was just a muffin.

To claim a meal you must have purchased something.  The odd thing is that we do not force you to accept muffin and coffee as breakfast but that is all you have to purchase in order to claim it.

 

[CountDC]

Here's a "for instance".  When I came back from Afghanistan in December, we had an overnight in Köln, Germany.  I didn't think that breakfast was included (looking at the hotel info book in the room, it stated in was €23), so I didn't go to breakfast at the hotel but got something once we arrived at the airport.  Turns out breakfast was included.  Is it wrong of me to claim that meal??

not wrong if you justify it so the approving authority knows all the facts.  submit it and include the explanation you just gave here.  Then the worse that will happen is they say no and you are out the money.

 

[CountDC]

Interesting - is that $1600 inclusive for rent and furnishings - or does it also include food?  We have quite a number of members out here at the school living on IR from Winnipeg.  They can submit receipts to a maximum of $1090/month to cover rent and furniture.  They get another $500-600 in other funds too.

Thanks for the reference Tess - conferences and all inclusive resorts aside, hotels that provide "breakfast" don't quite meet the requisites listed above.  If I could pay a lower night stay that was without breakfast included - then the reference would be valid.  Since this food is provided more as a marketing tool, the cost is not really covered by the accommodation cost.  That being said, if I eat the food in the hotel and it suffices - I do not claim breakfast.  If I decide that I would rather go to the Denny's across the street - that too is my prerogative.

marketing tool or not if the hotel provides a meal then you are not entitled to claim one.  You can explain why the meal was not satisfactory but that does not make it automatically approved.  I have seen some accepted and also seen some rejected.  That you would rather eat at Denny's is your prerogative but it is also the prerogative of the person approving the claim to say no to paying it.

There are many misconceptions out there on claims simply because they have been allowed by some that don't know better or simply don't care (including clerks and log o's).  I have had several senior officers and aids look shocked when I ask them for their memo justifying the hotel they stayed in.  Cols and above can stay where ever they want and don't have to justify it - WRONG.

Please check the regulations and use them.  I'd rather not see the case of the Chief and Col that claimed $5 for taxis they didn't take.  At least the guys I caught for taxi fraud only got slaps on the wrist.