RCAF Fighter Sqn ReOrg

[dapaterson]

As for Bagotville: I agree, Max: Best kept secret in the RCAF. Nice town, lots to do, close to Quebec City. And on top of that, if it didn't exist, how would all those strapping young Canadian flyers find those beautiful French Canadian galls to marry?  ;D

Post them to 430 Sqn.

 

[Rifleman62]

Oldgateboatdriver:

You have to be careful here: Either the job of the military is to defend the country or it is to provide economic opportunities for civilians, regardless of defence needs (OK, it's not quite a "either-or" situation, I know). But you cannot simply continue a military activity somewhere that doesn't make military sense just to provide for the local economy. Manufacturing single-employer-of-the-town has closed more towns in Canada than the military has. Those towns downsized and somehow survived. The loss of fisheries in small Newfoundland villages has been a lot more devastating.

Either the job of the government military is to defend the country or it is to provide economic opportunities for civilians, regardless of defence needs (OK, it's not quite a "either-or" situation, I know). But you cannot simply fiddle military requirements and eventually deliver military equipment  continue a military activity somewhere that doesn't make military sense just to provide for the local economy.

That the LPC policy.

 

[dimsum]

As a Government, how do you justify stripping a town (Cold Lake) of a third of their residents and half of its economy?

As DND, how do you convince the People that we still need the CLAWR when there is no-one using it on a regular basis?

As the RCAF, where do you train for large-ish (4v4) scale employment?  Which airspace are we going to use that is big enough to accomodate 5 Squadrons? Who's going to man the other DOBs and FOLs?  The same guys that just got back from Cold Lake?  Who's going to go and support the JTAC courses in Wainwright, US and Gagetown?  What about exercises?  As it is, a Fighter Pilot is away for the better part of 4-6 months a year.  Adding 3 months on top of that isn't going to help the family life.

More importantly:  where is the infrastructure to support 76+18 CF-18 in Mirabel?

OGBD already suggested Summerside, PEI.

As for the rest, and I hesitate to say this normally, but look at the Australians - their fighter home bases are Amberley (1h from Brisbane), Newcastle (2h from Sydney, on the nice part of the coast) and Tindal (3h south of Darwin).  Tindal is like Cold Lake but that was relatively new - they used to be in Darwin.  The big difference is that people don't generally stay in Tindal as the HQ and such are in Newcastle.

Their ranges are out in South Australia and other places not close to their bases.  They deploy there as a detachment; otherwise there is a caretaker crew.  As for their "bare bases" or FOLs, there is also a caretaker crew per base.  Bear in mind that these crews aren't from the Squadrons - more like a Sup Tech, MSE OP, and clerk to keep things running.  I have no idea what their QRA posture is like but it's not like they have planes scattered to the FOLs in the north and west all that often. 

*If* we were to do the same, I'd say either consolidate all the sqns in Bagotville and keep CL as a site for the range and a larger caretaker crew, like Goose Bay.  If AETE stays there, keep the bare minimum and have the rest in Ottawa.  If we absolutely need defence in the west, maybe move the Sqn down to Edmonton International Airport (or Calgary Airport).

 

[Altair]

Oldgateboatdriver:
Either the job of the government military is to defend the country or it is to provide economic opportunities for civilians, regardless of defence needs (OK, it's not quite a "either-or" situation, I know). But you cannot simply fiddle military requirements and eventually deliver military equipment  continue a military activity somewhere that doesn't make military sense just to provide for the local economy.

That the Whatever Party is in power policy.

Fixed that for you

 

[Rifleman62]

Don't fix that for me. I quoted a post, then using the sentences in that post expressed my thoughts on the quote. I did not FTFY.

Based on the LPC record to date, and from decades of living it, I stand by my post.You may disagree based on your life experiences.

 

[PuckChaser]

Split this off as its definitely a standalone discussion, especially with the apparent increase in total operational fighters once we get a replacement chosen.

 

[Quirky]

Cold lake just needs to be shut down. Period. There is no reason to keep a permanent presence there. The range would be just as easily accessible from Edmonton or Saskatoon. Hell, build up Moose Jaw, it’s already an established CF base that’s close to civilization. The majority of people aren’t into the whole redneck style of life, hunting, fishing or woodland activities. This is 2018 now, people want urban areas with malls, coffee shops, big box stores, modern movie theatres and easy access to a major airport and health services. Cold lake will always be a huge retention crap storm of the RCAF. People aren’t going to waste away their lives in a crap hole that their spouse hates as well, nevermind having to deal with the whole PLD rate non sense.

The leadership is obviously aware of the issue and either A: doesn’t care or B: doesn’t care enough to push for changes.

I will always recommend the new guys coming in to seek other forms of employment or career options that doesn’t involve living in f***ville.

 

[MilEME09]

What if the government investing more in cold lake, and made it more attractive for business's to set up shop and living conditions more suitable for modern life?

 

[Downhiller229]

For the record I enjoy it up there. I think some people are going to be unhappy regardless of their situation. Could it be better? Yeah for sure but I don't see any change coming anytime soon. PLD would go a long way in making it tolerable, maybe giving the airport bus a stop in town so people can go to Edmonton for the weekend and such? Short of that I don't think you'll see this place erode, the Hawks for example can't practically get to the CLAWR from Edmonton and get the work they need done.

 

[Quirky]

What if the government investing more in cold lake, and made it more attractive for business's to set up shop and living conditions more suitable for modern life?

Turning cold lake into a city will take decades. Plus you still can’t mask the biggest issue - isolation.

For the record I enjoy it up there. I think some people are going to be unhappy regardless of their situation. Could it be better? Yeah for sure but I don't see any change coming anytime soon. PLD would go a long way in making it tolerable, maybe giving the airport bus a stop in town so people can go to Edmonton for the weekend and such? Short of that I don't think you'll see this place erode, the Hawks for example can't practically get to the CLAWR from Edmonton and get the work they need done.

You are still travelling a total of 7-8 hours on a bus for what, a mall? That’s the entire problem.

The Hawks and hornets can do whatever they need to do without the range. They are too dependent on it and it’s a lazy excuse to remain in cold lake. There are dozens of smaller countries that produce fighter pilots just fine without an airspace the size of Europe.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Where do you suggest we train without a range?  Do you have the slightest clue of what we do on a training mission?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Where do you suggest we train without a range?  Do you have the slightest clue of what we do on a training mission?

No. That's why we're glad that they put you so far out of harm's way

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Where do you suggest we train without a range?  Do you have the slightest clue of what we do on a training mission?

What do you do in Bagotville? Serious question.

 

[SupersonicMax]

We have airspace where we train which is 25nm North of the base.  To drop weapons, we go to Valcartier (75 nm).  There is no such airspace around Edmonton.  The closest is the airspace surrounding the CLAWR which is too far (130 nm) from Edmonton to be useful (fuel limited) or efficient.  You'd spend 30-40 minutes transiting for 30-40 minutes of training.  Our transit is normally litterally 5-10 minutes normally.  The flight time fraction spent training would reduce dramatically, reasulting in more hours required to train someone up to the same level.  And that's for good weather with a 2-bag jet.  Then you are in the BFM/ACM phase (single centerline fuel tank jet) and need to hold alternate fuel and you get 10 minutes of training.  Not even worth launching for.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Thanks, Max.

 

[PuckChaser]

Why couldn't Cold Lake be kept open like Goose Bay with civilian contractors keeping the airport and range facilities open, allowing Sqns to surge to them for a week to conduct intensive training? Couple 52 footers for spare parts and some buses for the maintainers/technicians. Reachback to Edmonton isn't far away if something goes pear-shaped that's not in the trucks, and you alleviate the loiter time issues for that BFM/ACM training.

Convenience isn't/shouldn't be a huge factor when you're hemorrhaging the technicians that keep the A/C airborne because of the austere location that isn't suitable for a single income spec pay Cpl salary. Perhaps that hard recommendation to close down Cold Lake would even kick the PLD update process in the ass.

 

[SupersonicMax]

This isn't about convenience.  Even with a full complement of maintainers, you'd have a hard time generating the extra hours on the aircraft to account for the transit.  Even in optimal conditions.  The problem is not unique to BFM/ACM.  It is just compounded by conducting BFM/ACM sorties.

 

[PuckChaser]

No no, I'm suggesting you fly your 6-pack up to Cold Lake for a few days and get what you need done and then fly home. You could even stay at the Best Western instead of the shacks.

 

[angus555]

Surely, there must be a better location in Canada to have an air weapons range rather than over an oil sands deposit. :facepalm:

 

[SupersonicMax]

No no, I'm suggesting you fly your 6-pack up to Cold Lake for a few days and get what you need done and then fly home. You could even stay at the Best Western instead of the shacks.

Sure. But what do you do when you are not in Cold Lake?  Stop flying?  My point is that Edmonton is not suitable in term of distance from the training areas to have meaningful training accomplished.