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RCMP spied on Tommy Douglas, files reveal

schart28

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Canadian Press: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/17/douglas-rcmp.html

RCMP spies shadowed Prairie politician Tommy Douglas for more than three decades, according to documents obtained by the Canadian Press.

A newly declassified file on Douglas shows the Mounties attended his speeches, dissected his published articles and, during one Parliament Hill demonstration, eavesdropped on a private conversation.

Douglas, a trailblazing socialist committed to social reform, drew the interest of RCMP security officers through his longstanding links with left-wing causes, the burgeoning peace movement and assorted Communist party members.

In the late 1970s, as the veteran politician neared retirement, the Mounties recommended keeping his file open based on the notion "there is much we do not know about Douglas."

The 1,142-page dossier, spanning nine volumes, was obtained by the Canadian Press from Library and Archives Canada under the Access to Information Act.

Personal files compiled by the RCMP's security and intelligence branch can be released through the access law 20 years after a subject's death. Douglas died of cancer at age 81 in February 1986.

Widely hailed as the father of medicare for championing universal health services, the influential Saskatchewan politician was voted the greatest Canadian of all time in a popular CBC contest two years ago.

Daughter Shirley married fellow actor Donald Sutherland. Their son, Kiefer Sutherland, stars in the hit television series 24.

A Baptist minister, Douglas entered politics upon seeing the toll the Great Depression took on families.

Attracted attention in 1939
It appears he first attracted the RCMP's attention in February 1939 when, as a Co-operative Commonwealth Federation MP, Douglas urged a group of labourers in downtown Ottawa to push for legislation beneficial to the unemployed.

An RCMP constable quietly attended the session, filing a secret two-page account to superiors.

A few years later, Douglas became leader of Saskatchewan's Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, soon heading up the first socialist government in North America.

As premier, he ushered in public auto insurance, guaranteed hospital care and a provincial bill of rights.

The RCMP file reflects Douglas's interest in anti-war causes, including opposition to nuclear weapons and criticism of UN policy on Korea.

There are also occasional references to allegations that the CCF harboured members with Communist ties.

Douglas was chosen leader of the federal New Democratic Party in 1961 and served for 10 years. The rise to national prominence only fuelled interest in his political associations.

In late 1964, the RCMP received a letter alleging that Douglas had once been an active member of the Communist party at the University of Chicago, where he had done postgraduate studies.

A top secret memo from a senior RCMP security officer to the force's deputy commissioner of operations indicates there was no reliable information to substantiate the tip.

"We have never asked the FBI for information on the matter because of Douglas' position as leader of a national political party."

During a March 1965 rally on Parliament Hill, an RCMP constable "observed a meeting" between Douglas and missionary peace activist James Endicott.

A report notes that Endicott, after congratulating Douglas on his speech, mentioned he had recently been to Saigon, where war would soon boil over.

Douglas asked: "How are things down there?"

Endicott replied: "Terrible, just terrible."

The secret report records their plans to have lunch the next week, duly noting later that no "information could be obtained" as to whether the meal took place.

Comments about Pearson
In May 1965, a confidential source provided information for an account of Douglas's appearance at a Communist party meeting in Burnaby, B.C.

The NDP leader took aim at Liberal prime minister Lester Pearson for not opposing U.S. actions in southeast Asia.

"Douglas states that Australia has already 'been taken in' and is sending troops to Vietnam," the memo reads. "He stated that he [Douglas] will fight with every drop of blood in his body against the Vietnam affair."

The file contains articles noting Douglas's concern about rumours of RCMP surveillance of Canadians, though there is no indication the politician suspected he was being watched.

"Setting people to spy on one another is not the way to protect freedom," he wrote while NDP leader.

RCMP security and intelligence officers amassed files on 800,000 Canadians and actively monitored thousands of organizations, from church and women's groups to media outlets and universities.

Markings indicate Douglas's file is one of more than 650 secret dossiers the RCMP kept on Canadian politicians and bureaucrats as part of a project known as the "VIP program."

While many of these files were destroyed, some with historical significance have been retained by the Library and Archives.

Portions of several documents in Douglas's file were withheld from release because they concern international security matters still deemed sensitive — or personal information, such as confidential sources or the names of others who came under RCMP scrutiny.

Hundreds of pages, though decades old, remain completely sealed.

Douglas stepped down as NDP leader in 1971, remaining in Parliament as a backbench MP for eight years.

One of the later file entries notes Douglas's participation in a demonstration outside the Soviet Embassy in Ottawa in support of Jewish prisoners of conscience.

In 1984, the newly formed Canadian Security Intelligence Service assumed most of the scandal-plagued RCMP's security duties.

In fact, a notation indicates that Justice David McDonald reviewed Douglas's file in September 1978 as part of a commission of inquiry into the RCMP's activities.

A Mountie assessment from the late 1970s says it was difficult to determine the influence Douglas's various leftist associates had over him.

"It is felt, however, there is much we do not know about Douglas and the file should be maintained in order to correlate any additional information that surfaces which might assist in piecing this jigsaw puzzle together."




 
schart28 said:
Portions of several documents in Douglas's file were withheld from release because they concern international security matters still deemed sensitive — or personal information, such as confidential sources or the names of others who came under RCMP scrutiny.

Hundreds of pages, though decades old, remain completely sealed.

I'm a civy, so I don't know anything (or almost, I've read a thread or 2 here:  )
about OPSEC and PERSEC, but isn't enough for international security matters
to be desensitive that a few decades have past ?
 
Yrys said:
I'm a civy, so I don't know anything (or almost, I've read a thread or 2 here:  )
about OPSEC and PERSEC, but isn't enough for international security matters
to be desensitive that a few decades have past ?

Also a civy, but I'd suggest that security issues can go on for decades; The Cambridge 4 (or 5) were active from the 30's and the "truth" wasn't fully revealed until the '80s.
 
And hopefully they are keeping an eye on some of the other wingnuts in the NDP. There's a lot of comfort for our enemies in the left wing camp. I'm sure the Taliban love Jacko's stance on Afghanistan.
 
To call Mr. Tommy Douglas a wingnut is a little beyond the pale. Mr. Douglas was in many Canadians minds (Left, Centre and Right) the greatest Canadian of his time. Had it not been for this great Canadian our quality of life would not be the envy of the world. While many claim to have invented our health care system etc it was Tommy who fought for it step by step without much support from the Liberals nor Conservatives. Having said that it was a Conservative PM from Sask who saw the wisdom of what Tommy was selling. While I am sure you do not agree with me please name me one just one Canadian Politician that has been the positive influance Mr. Douglas has been on this nation.

I can assure you Tommy would be rolling in his grave if he knew what Jack was up to. Mr Douglas and the CCF were a far cry from what the current NDP are today. In fact while the NDP in the past has been a great sobering second thought in the past they are a tad lost right now. I am sure they will find the way back given in time and a new leader. I for one am proud to say I am a Tommy Douglas kind of guy.

Gotta love Canada and Democracy
 
Let's not get sucked into the revisionism of our times. Mr Douglas was a member of organizations that in his day were considered to be harbouring revolutionaries and communists. It is a fact that they were. The other point is that Mr Douglas flirted with the communist party at one time himself. The security forces of our country have a mandate to keep an eye on people who might be a threat to the security of our country. Just because a guy had a few good ideas doesn't mean he is above scrutiny, given the atmosphere of the Cold War and the real threats that were out there.

It always gives me a pain in the backside when people talk about guys like Douglas, Trudeau, Pearson etc as if they were demi-gods. All of them had a lot of bad ideas too...just like any other human being....Trudeau had a lot of them as a matter of fact that have put this country's justice system and military in the fine mess it is today. :rage:

The health care system, as it has evolved, is another of those sacred cows that needs a lot of scrutiny. There is a lot of wastage and mismanagement that goes on and anytime anyone wants to question that we get the old crap about "staying true to Tommy's principles." I value my Health Care system highly. It isn't free by any stretch of the imagination and it's getting costlier by the minute.

I didn't call Tommy Douglas a wingnut...I was actually referring to people in the current NDP like Dawn "I haven't got a clue about DND but I'm the critic" Black, Jack Layton, Alexa McDonagh etc. I actually think Peter Stoffer is alright and has his head screwed on right...he's probably in the wrong party! ;D
 
Fair enough, I can guess where you sit in the house right beside Joe McCarthy ha ha ha :D Insofar as Trudeau goes I think it is unfair to saddle him with all the issues of the decline of the CF. I suggest you look at what a serviceman was paid before Trudeau. As a soldier who was privileged to be trained by some Korean War Vets and yes a couple of WW II vets I can promise you that while they didn't like 1968 they sure liked what he did for the hip national bank aka the pocket. By the way most Canadians feel he was the greatest PM thus so far. Perhaps we sould monitor them for those left wing thoughts as you
advocate. No one is saying that anyone is a demi-god and yes they all had some bad ideas, they also had some good ones as well.

The security forces of this country do indeed have a mandate and that is set by the Govt of this country not by the security forces themeselves. Yes it is true that my god some people flirted with the communist party hell some were Fascist's before the war. So what...............We are the same nation that hung Louis Riel and now he is considered a father of Confederation go figure. Time is a great healer. The famous John Crosby of Nfld advocated that Nfld become part of the USA is he any less of a Canadian for that.

Lets face it no party really wants to spend $$$$$ on the CF. They will and when they have to, please do not be fooled by the current spending by this Govt. Lets not forget we did have a Tory Govt in power for some of the time when our country's justice system and military was put in the fine mess it is today.  The fact remains that a military must reflect society and yes if the justice system within it seems not what it was well so be it. This bad stuff goes hand in hand with the good stuff like PLD, Tax free tours great pay and tons of adventure. 
                                                   
My dear friend re our health care system while not perfect it is still pretty good. What gives me a real pain in the backside (as you would put it) is Right wingers (aka Harris and crowd) who want to tax us like Canadians and give us American service. Do you have any idea what health care costs in the USA. Thank you very much I would rather pay for it via taxes. You are right re wastage within the health care system. As one who is married to someone who works within it the tales I have heard are indeed shocking. But I ask you is it the caregivers wasting the $$$$ or more likely the administrators. The caregivers are not the problem in fact most of them are under valued (the great drain to the states is all about $$$$$)the caregivers are for the most part underpaid. I must say your position re moderate politics is clear. May I remind you these same right wingers who figure out how to win an election is by demonizing people (aka Harris re Nurses and Teachers that worked out really well didn't it)and getting a bunch of middle class people together and reminding them how great things were and who is to blame for it all. Oh yes we have the answer to all your problems just trust us. Harris sure showed how much honour he had during the Ipperwash inquiry's (I wonder how history will write him). At the end of the day too much of the Left Centre or Right isn't good for any nation.

Merry Christmas and to all a good night

All that being said I do agree with you Comrade  ;) about Jack.
 
captainj said:
... Insofar as Trudeau goes I think it is unfair to saddle him with all the issues of the decline of the CF ...

True, captainj, a wee bit of the blame goes to Pearson/Hellyer and some to Diefenbaker/Green (in External Affairs), and some more to the Chrétien/Axworthy/Collinette team, but Pierre Trudeau was 100% responsible for the greatest acts of policy vandalism in Canadian history: the 1968 unilateral (uncoordinated) reduction of Canada's NATO commitment in 1968 and the 1969 White Paper on Foreign Policy.  Both were acts of a petty, provincial, puffed up pseudo intellectual poltroon who was waaaaay out of his depth and who operated, on foreign and defence policy issues, with his heart rather than what little head he had.  In his heart, as has been well documented on the historical record, he despised the military and the people in it.

Pierre Trudeau did more damage to Canada than any other single leader, foreign or domestic - and not just in foreign and defence policy.  He was also an economic illiterate.

But, he sure had charisma, and I guess that’s still enough for the vast majority of Canadians to remain illogically (maybe ignorantly is a better word) myopic about the worst prime minister in our history.


 
captainj said:
My dear friend re our health care system while not perfect it is still pretty good. What gives me a real pain in the backside (as you would put it) is Right wingers (aka Harris and crowd) who want to tax us like Canadians and give us American service. Do you have any idea what health care costs in the USA. Thank you very much I would rather pay for it via taxes. You are right re wastage within the health care system. As one who is married to someone who works within it the tales I have heard are indeed shocking.

People defend the current system only because they have no experience with alternatives. Members of my family are paying Canadian taxes and are on waiting lists of six months or more in pain for what should be routine procedures, while my American relatives can receive treatment in days. You might also note that Canadian patients are sent to the United States, and there is now a trend of Canadians going to Mumbai India to receive procedures in a fraction of the time and a fraction of the cost that the Canadian Health Care system expends.

I also have experience with the public school system, and am happy to pay for my children to go to private school (where they are operating about two grade levels above their public school peers based on comparing the homework and reading. I also look at their peers in the private schools (where they are operating at an equivalent level), so I can't claim I have supergenius children, just well educated ones.)

Adam Smith wins again

 
I'm not advocating MacCarthism or witch hunts, I'm advocating prudence. It's too late to prepare when the revolution is upon you. too late to guard against terrorists after they've bombed your vital points.

As for Health Care I too have a wife who is a Health Care Professional...thus the basis for my claim of waste. I agree that the wastage is with the Administration. Whenever the Government gets involved running anything we get a wastful bloated bureaucracy that private business would nevertolerate. I'm not advocating private health care by any stretch but maybe some of the principles of successful business could be used to eliviate the high costs.

Trudeau is one of the worst PMs this country has ever had. He's one of those people that people liked cause he was charismatic. There are many in the West who would disagree with your anaylis of "many think he was best PM." His NEP and other plans that served the Eastern Canadian elites did nothing but alienate the West. He did very little for Atlantic Canada because he didn't see it as imortant to the Rest of Canada or his purposes. I think there are a lot of people think he was one of the most arrogant, self serving politicians that ever walked in the House of Commons. He also got us in the mess we are in with Quebec today due to his patriation of a Constitution that they never signed onto. His ego got us into a situation that is still a problem today. As stated by others he did have a big hand in gutting our Forces.

When I joined in 77 our equipment was the joke of NATO. Steam driven destroyers with 50s technology...Our uniform was a farce (I was a sailor working with our NATO allies in a green army uniform) thanks to Liberals Hellyer and Pearson and our Defence policy was in total disarray.....the last white paper having been drafted in the 60s if I recall correctly.

Yeah you're right I don't have a lot of time for leftie liberals and N Dippers. If you want to talk about demonizing take a look at how the Liberals fought the last two elections. "in our streets, with guns, in canada." THE BOOGIE MAN IS COMING!!!  ::)
 
Boy oh boy this is so much fun. As I guy who comes from the engine that runs this nation I can see your point on PET, but as an Upper Canadian he works for me. Insofar as the nations worst PM goes it has to be Mackenzie King now there was a twit . A man who should be held accountable for the deaths of some 8000 Canadians during the Schelt all because he didn't want to send conscripted well trained troops when needed.

When it comes to elections I find that our political parties have all sinned and done stupid things. Sadly the Liberals have a culture of entitlement and they swooped to new lows last time out. I actually worked for the Torys last election because of what they did. In point of fact when my Liberal MP came by to try and get my vote I invited her in and gave her a huge blast and then kicked her out true story. I then called up the Tory office and offered my services and talents. He got in by the way and is now a Cabinet Minister.

There are still a few good Liberals out there my friend. One that comes to mind is Dan McTeague Ajax/Pickering. It was Dan with a little help that brought the matter of soldiers losing their benefits once wounded into the house. Thank god it has been embraced and the troops will not suffer. Interestingly enough the Torys are taking credit for it. As a guy who was kind of in the know ground level on this give me a break. Bravo Zulu to Dan.............Now tell me how bad that was for moral.

So it seems we agree on some things.
 
captainj said:
... Insofar as the nations worst PM goes it has to be Mackenzie King now there was a twit . A man who should be held accountable for the deaths of some 8000 Canadians during the Schelt all because he didn't want to send conscripted well trained troops when needed.
...
So it seems we agree on some things.

No, we don't.

On the historical record King was better than most.  He made some, several, many silly foreign and defence policy decisions - starting with making O.D. Skelton his foreign policy guru.  He was timid and far more concerned about winning elections in Quebec than wars in Europe, but that makes him just about par for the course amongst Canadian PMs, including Borden.  On the other hand he fought the really big war, the Great Depression, and, at least, didn't lose it; then he led the more or less united nation through World War II.  Not bad, all in all.  Perhaps his strategic record is light, in some measure, because he had lousy - sometimes really lousy - military advisors.

On the same record Trudeau is, head and shoulders, the worst prime minister in Canadian history.  Even his much vaunted Charter of Rights is highly illiberal, enshrining, as it does, collective rights which are, universally, abominations.
 
captainj... Yes....I agree with everything you just posted and I have a lot of time for Dan, your MP. I too got involved in the last election for the first time cause I was so fed up with the Liberals. I was mad as blazes and not taking it anymore. My philosophy was to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem (complain but never get involved). As long as I didn't drag my uniform into it or try to politicise the workplace....which I didn't.

Mackenzie King...yep a real disaster...and apparently a real eccentric too....saw a show the other day on all the funny stuff he had re=constructed at Harrington Lake and of course he used to consult his dog and his dead mother for political decisions if I remember rightly. But hey I think Chretien used to consult Aline quite a bit too.

I think most persons in the CF are pretty cynical when it comes to politicians. The CPC is doing the right thing by us now but if it becomes a political liability we could easily get shafted again. The first term of Mulroney's Govt looked good too.....white paper promising the moon and was light on delivery. Of course I never thought 12 nuclear submarines was ever a likelihood!
 
IN HOC SIGNO

No Dan isn't my MP wish he was, mine is the Fin Min. I got to know Dan as an AO dealing with a wounded fellow (still am) who happens to be related to Uncle Dan. Dan really went to bat for us on this issue when the Torys and his fellow Liberals didn't want to know anything about it. In fact I spoke to a Tory MP directly on this as he wanted some facts. He claimed the wounded are getting compensation from VAC, SISIP etc. I countered how do you compensate a 20 year old boy who will never walk and realize his dreams. This isn't an issue of money but rather one of dignity. Hell if it is about "danger pay" trust me these fellows are in danger every day. My friend I think you and I could have a beer in total harmony.

Edward

As I say you gotta love democracy..................I know many WWII vets who would totally disagree with you on Mr King. Again I would be remiss not to point out that PET is very much beloved by many in this nation. Clearly you would have voted for Stanfield. I am pretty sure Brian is one of your favs. In point of fact find me a Tory PM who even comes close to PET. I suppose all those Canadians are wrong perhaps we should take names and monitor them. 

It will not be hard to go down the list of Tory PM,s as it is thankfully small.  :)
 
captainj said:
...
Edward

As I say you gotta love democracy..................I know many WWII vets who would totally disagree with you on Mr King. Again I would be remiss not to point out that PET is very much beloved by many in this nation. Clearly you would have voted for Stanfield. I am pretty sure Brian is one of your favs. In point of fact find me a Tory PM who even comes close to PET. I suppose all those Canadians are wrong perhaps we should take names and monitor them. 
...

I said the historical record.

Public opinion, including the opinion of some, many, even most veterans, is worthless.  People vote; that's their hard earned right.  History measures and decides, despite the transient views of ill-informed people.

On the historical record, thus far: King - better than most, and, as we see more and more history, getting better; Trudeau - worst of the lot, and, again as we see more and more, going down from there.
 
Edward fair enough I do like your quote this one you and I will never come close on. However I am fond of St Laurent

Have a great Christmas Sir
 
captainj said:
IN HOC SIGNO

No Dan isn't my MP wish he was, mine is the Fin Min. I got to know Dan as an AO dealing with a wounded fellow (still am) who happens to be related to Uncle Dan. Dan really went to bat for us on this issue when the Torys and his fellow Liberals didn't want to know anything about it. In fact I spoke to a Tory MP directly on this as he wanted some facts. He claimed the wounded are getting compensation from VAC, SISIP etc. I countered how do you compensate a 20 year old boy who will never walk and realize his dreams. This isn't an issue of money but rather one of dignity. Hell if it is about "danger pay" trust me these fellows are in danger every day. My friend I think you and I could have a beer in total harmony.

Edward

As I say you gotta love democracy..................I know many WWII vets who would totally disagree with you on Mr King. Again I would be remiss not to point out that PET is very much beloved by many in this nation. Clearly you would have voted for Stanfield. I am pretty sure Brian is one of your favs. In point of fact find me a Tory PM who even comes close to PET. I suppose all those Canadians are wrong perhaps we should take names and monitor them. 

It will not be hard to go down the list of Tory PM,s as it is thankfully small.  :)

Dang hit the wrong button. Would have and did vote for Stanfield a true gentleman whom the press crucified with one stupid picture of him fumbling a football. My mother worked in his office in Ottawa when he was the Leader of the Opposition. He was unfortunate to lead the party when the country was gripped by Trudeaumania, the beginnings of the press convincing us to vote on style rather than substance.
Trudeau wasn't always loved though he got a minority in 72 and defeated in 79. I think he would have had a tough time in 84 against Brian too. I did like Brian Mulroney and thought he was a fine PM. Didn't like his GST very much but then...who likes taxes??
 
Well I am glad to see the buttons are working at any rate. I ask you how does it feel to b the Salmon that swims up the river. It is clear you do not like PET while the majority did. As for Brian you like him, when the majority still cannot stand him, a man some would say created the BQ in a round about way by shaking hands with the devil to gain power (then again don't they all). As far as Stanfield goes I am sure he was a gentleman along with Joe Clark. The deal is, when will the Torys ever learn to have their leader go to toastmasters. Part of Leadership sometimes is being charismatic.  The good news for all of us re the Torys is they will do what they are best at start to behave like Scorpion and kill each other. I find it great sport. This fact I have had confirmed by a reliable source inside the party (a ex Senator who has raised enough coin to float any third world country for the Torys) I suppose the only hope is Mr Dion will screw the pooch in the next election. After that look out because the Liberals we be coming on like gangbusters and guess what happens next. the torys are once again left in the cold.

Insofar as your obsession with the press I do not hear you howling about how unfair they treated Turner...........................................

Do not worry as I am sometimes that salmon too. I am know as Comrade in the mess, indeed I should let you read a staff paper I wrote on how the CF would be better off long term under a Socialist Govt. A little far fetched I admit but far better than stuff like a study on GG Simmonds or Op Totalize.
 
Well salmon are very productive if you remember. I'm not the only one who disliked Trudeau. I lived in the West for a good portion of my career and there wasn't a lot of ardour from him out there. Believe it or not the group think of Central Canada is not the only opinion in the land. A lot of people out there liked Brian Mulroney too. But once again I think you listen to the press too much. They like to dictate how "everyone" thinks by throwing in stock adjectives when they go to describe things e.g. the "disastrous" Somalia mission (not for the people who got fed and schooled it wasn't), the "elite" Vandoo Regiment (in someones mind anyway.....well you get my point.
I agree with you that the press crucified John Turner....and others including Stockwell Day who is actually making a pretty good cabinet minister.

You obviously didn't' see the PMs CTV interview last night it was a masterful and frank talk with the nation as far as I'm concerned. As a past Toastmaster myself I didn't think he needed any lessons.

I think the problem is not that Tories kill each other but they tend to be people who have strong convictions. Liberals tend to have the conviction that they need to win elections and then go about it by finding out what is popular to jump on the band wagon with.
The last Ipsos Reid poll of a few days ago already showed that the convention bounce was wearing off and the Libs were down 2 per cent and the cons were up 2 per cent. Hey with all that free publicity it would have been strange if they hadn't gained a little.
The PM and CPC steady hand at the helm will once again come through....next election will be a majority CPC win.....I'm taking odds!!  ;D
 
I think they will win but a majority don't bet the farm on it. Harper certainly has a steady hand that being his own. It will work for some time but not a long time. I will agree there are a lot of free thinking mbrs of the CPC who in point of fact are PC's rather than that group of rather small minded Westerners who sadly highjack a great Canadian Party that I had in the past voted for.  Those free thinking people will soon free themselves from the yoke of "Reform" that will be the undoing of the party. I fully understand re the press and please do not think I am one who follows everything they say. I could have guessed you lived out West by your love of PET.

In any case it has been fun I truly wish you the very best. My thoughts are as I know yours are with the folks deployed who have given us the ability to have this exchange here in cyber space.

Merry Chrismas
 
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