Alberta Bound
Member
- Reaction score
- 59
- Points
- 430
A lot to digest here in a short conversation. Some insight.
“ I understand in many areas their relationship with the local communities isn't great. That is changeable.“
I am going to disagree with that. The poling in Alberta (and across Canada) shows most RCMP policed communities are satisfied with the RCMP. Often where there are issues it is with:
My experience in numerous communities (including Maskwacis, which is one of the most political in Alberta) was never of the general population or even the local leadership being unhappy with “their” detachment. The rhetoric about RCMP issues normally had a greater political purpose. I stood at media events where leaders vilified the RCMP in search of getting something from the Province or Ottawa and then being invited out with them for lunch or invited to their home for dinner.
I appreciate the perspective about F&W Officers compared to cops. I knew a number of provincial F&W and Fed Fish. Most had choices of where to be posted and often their organization won’t pay for them to transfer unless it is an organizational need. Alberta limits relocation assistance to $20,000.
While dangerous, F&W aren’t normally policing people at their worst. The town mayor who is an alcoholic, the lawyer / Docto / Business Owner, who is has domestic violence issues, your kids teacher who has mental health issues, the kids in your kids school who tried to kill his Mom with a hunting rifle and the Rig Rats who are kids of your neighbours and spend their $150,000 a year on drugs, alcohol, big trucks and toys. I know a number of City cops (EPS, CPS, VPD) who don’t live in their much larger City so as to limit chances to encounter clients. This is impossible in rural Canada and on Reserve. You either work hard and eventually move or you start turning a blind eye.
I wonder what community is seeing new members move at or under 2 years. There are Limited Duration Posts but 2 year ones are in very isolated locations (I don’t know one that is not a northern indigenous community) 3 year ones are semi isolated (also mostly northern indigenous). The average rural Det in Canada keeps a Constable 4-5 years. Yes some new Csts quit. Moving to Coronation Alberta from London Ont can be an eye opener. Imagine the south Asian person moving from their parents basement in Richmond BC to Chateh AB, for their first real job.
Members want to move to more desirable locations for the same reasons CAF Members want to. Spousal jobs, restaurants, to build equity in a home, theatres, an airport that gets you somewhere, access to more health services, educational opportunities / sports / stable friends for their kids. Plus, TBS has decreased isolated allowances and increased rents in Force housing. Plus these are often very busy posts and members get burned out.
Oh, and I am against getting out of contract policing.
Keeping larger municipal detachments gives people in small detachments a place to go once they have done their time. They also give more diverse opportunities in policing roles. That impacts, morale, wellness and career growth. Plus, besides primary roles (GD, GIS, Traffic, etc) many members have secondary roles (ERT, EDU, Negotiators, Scribes, Tac Troop, Medics, etc). Larger Dets due to larger resource pools are where many of these tasks can draw Members from without impacting daily calls for service.
Having RCMP across Canada provides the ability to deploy resources (with the same training, uniform, rules, experiences - interoperability) across Canada when needed. Not just for the events planned years or months out (Olympics, G7, etc), nor the PM or GGs visits (some at very short notice), but for fires, floods, jail strikes, protests, cross Canada man hunts, etc. Like the CAF, these come up every year, often several times.
Anyone who thinks Ottawa is going to give Fed Policing a sufficiently larger pot of money to solve any of the deficiencies if contract policing disappears is dreaming. Fed depends on access to contract Air Services, ERT, PDS, Special O, EDU, etc in meeting many of its operations. Ottawa isn’t going to pay to staff all of those federally all across Canada. What you will see is generous contracts to OPP, SQ, and all the larger munis for that support when needed by Fed. These costs will be at premium rates and under conditions dictated by the suppliers.
As far as, we should be the FBI. Smaller country, massively larger population, and having talked with FBI members. They admire that we can home grow members in contract with skills for federal. Two things to consider, they hire lots of state and city cops to bring in that same experience. They also retain investigations that bring experience to their people that RCMP Fed won’t retain. Kidnapping, bank robbery, a lot of the white collar crime, Cybercrimes, missing persons.
Now the RCMP can divest itself of contract. You will get members who will badge over in desirable communities. But who wants to badge over in no where special ina Northern Territory or Prairie Province, forever. So it will be a slow road.
Surrey PS is still struggling to even get enough recruit applicants.
Grande Prairie PS is having the same issues and is only slowly moving ahead due to the province propping up the transition with suitcase loads of cash. Those taxpayers are going to get a shock when the province turns off the tap eventually.
In my service I worked with 5 small PSs in neighbouring communities who folded and the RCMP took over policing. Mainly because they couldn’t keep people, even recruits for more than a couple years.
Does the RCMP need reforms, no disagreement. Do the Govts (Ottawa and the Provinces) need to stop telling the RCMP to shift resources for X priority here, to here, then here, then here. Versus just providing the actual $$$$ to address the specific concern. Absolutely.
Wow, glad to get all that off my chest.
The ex PMs White Paper was stupid. There was many accurate concerns, which the RCMP have been asking for help to resolve for years. But those issues had a price tag Ottawa (and many Provinces) didn’t want to pay and I don’t suspect that they will in the future. You don’t need to dump contract to fix any of the actual issues. It would be like saying the CAF would best solve their issues by making the Navy it’s own Dept completely separate from the Army, also the Air Force should be completely separate and so should SOF and the Rangers and probably SAR. So they can focus on their core roles.
It might even sound right if written by a team of academics in a White Paper.
I hope you all had a good weekend.
“ I understand in many areas their relationship with the local communities isn't great. That is changeable.“
I am going to disagree with that. The poling in Alberta (and across Canada) shows most RCMP policed communities are satisfied with the RCMP. Often where there are issues it is with:
- resource levels (controlled not by the RCMP but by the Provinces or Municipalities who are the contract partner),
- response times (normally dictated by resourcing levels) which are intertwined to the detachment placement and boundaries (decided upon by the contract partners, not the RCMP).
- Lastly, by not “seeing” the members enough. Which is a fair concern. But is often dictated by the ever increasing level of paperwork. Not just file documentation but increased “reporting” for stats purposes to Govts and “transparency” to outside groups.
My experience in numerous communities (including Maskwacis, which is one of the most political in Alberta) was never of the general population or even the local leadership being unhappy with “their” detachment. The rhetoric about RCMP issues normally had a greater political purpose. I stood at media events where leaders vilified the RCMP in search of getting something from the Province or Ottawa and then being invited out with them for lunch or invited to their home for dinner.
I appreciate the perspective about F&W Officers compared to cops. I knew a number of provincial F&W and Fed Fish. Most had choices of where to be posted and often their organization won’t pay for them to transfer unless it is an organizational need. Alberta limits relocation assistance to $20,000.
While dangerous, F&W aren’t normally policing people at their worst. The town mayor who is an alcoholic, the lawyer / Docto / Business Owner, who is has domestic violence issues, your kids teacher who has mental health issues, the kids in your kids school who tried to kill his Mom with a hunting rifle and the Rig Rats who are kids of your neighbours and spend their $150,000 a year on drugs, alcohol, big trucks and toys. I know a number of City cops (EPS, CPS, VPD) who don’t live in their much larger City so as to limit chances to encounter clients. This is impossible in rural Canada and on Reserve. You either work hard and eventually move or you start turning a blind eye.
I wonder what community is seeing new members move at or under 2 years. There are Limited Duration Posts but 2 year ones are in very isolated locations (I don’t know one that is not a northern indigenous community) 3 year ones are semi isolated (also mostly northern indigenous). The average rural Det in Canada keeps a Constable 4-5 years. Yes some new Csts quit. Moving to Coronation Alberta from London Ont can be an eye opener. Imagine the south Asian person moving from their parents basement in Richmond BC to Chateh AB, for their first real job.
Members want to move to more desirable locations for the same reasons CAF Members want to. Spousal jobs, restaurants, to build equity in a home, theatres, an airport that gets you somewhere, access to more health services, educational opportunities / sports / stable friends for their kids. Plus, TBS has decreased isolated allowances and increased rents in Force housing. Plus these are often very busy posts and members get burned out.
Oh, and I am against getting out of contract policing.
Keeping larger municipal detachments gives people in small detachments a place to go once they have done their time. They also give more diverse opportunities in policing roles. That impacts, morale, wellness and career growth. Plus, besides primary roles (GD, GIS, Traffic, etc) many members have secondary roles (ERT, EDU, Negotiators, Scribes, Tac Troop, Medics, etc). Larger Dets due to larger resource pools are where many of these tasks can draw Members from without impacting daily calls for service.
Having RCMP across Canada provides the ability to deploy resources (with the same training, uniform, rules, experiences - interoperability) across Canada when needed. Not just for the events planned years or months out (Olympics, G7, etc), nor the PM or GGs visits (some at very short notice), but for fires, floods, jail strikes, protests, cross Canada man hunts, etc. Like the CAF, these come up every year, often several times.
Anyone who thinks Ottawa is going to give Fed Policing a sufficiently larger pot of money to solve any of the deficiencies if contract policing disappears is dreaming. Fed depends on access to contract Air Services, ERT, PDS, Special O, EDU, etc in meeting many of its operations. Ottawa isn’t going to pay to staff all of those federally all across Canada. What you will see is generous contracts to OPP, SQ, and all the larger munis for that support when needed by Fed. These costs will be at premium rates and under conditions dictated by the suppliers.
As far as, we should be the FBI. Smaller country, massively larger population, and having talked with FBI members. They admire that we can home grow members in contract with skills for federal. Two things to consider, they hire lots of state and city cops to bring in that same experience. They also retain investigations that bring experience to their people that RCMP Fed won’t retain. Kidnapping, bank robbery, a lot of the white collar crime, Cybercrimes, missing persons.
Now the RCMP can divest itself of contract. You will get members who will badge over in desirable communities. But who wants to badge over in no where special ina Northern Territory or Prairie Province, forever. So it will be a slow road.
Surrey PS is still struggling to even get enough recruit applicants.
Grande Prairie PS is having the same issues and is only slowly moving ahead due to the province propping up the transition with suitcase loads of cash. Those taxpayers are going to get a shock when the province turns off the tap eventually.
In my service I worked with 5 small PSs in neighbouring communities who folded and the RCMP took over policing. Mainly because they couldn’t keep people, even recruits for more than a couple years.
Does the RCMP need reforms, no disagreement. Do the Govts (Ottawa and the Provinces) need to stop telling the RCMP to shift resources for X priority here, to here, then here, then here. Versus just providing the actual $$$$ to address the specific concern. Absolutely.
Wow, glad to get all that off my chest.
The ex PMs White Paper was stupid. There was many accurate concerns, which the RCMP have been asking for help to resolve for years. But those issues had a price tag Ottawa (and many Provinces) didn’t want to pay and I don’t suspect that they will in the future. You don’t need to dump contract to fix any of the actual issues. It would be like saying the CAF would best solve their issues by making the Navy it’s own Dept completely separate from the Army, also the Air Force should be completely separate and so should SOF and the Rangers and probably SAR. So they can focus on their core roles.
It might even sound right if written by a team of academics in a White Paper.
I hope you all had a good weekend.
