RCR red sash

[Rick Goebel]

I have to say, in support of marshall sl, and with all due respect to Michael Dorosh that the colour of sash for officers is crimson and not purple.

Further, the Pipe Major? and Drum Major (as well as the RSM) of highland units wear sashes over the left shoulder rather than the right because they dress as officers rather than as NCMs and because the Pipes and Drums of highland units have often been treated more as infantry than as other tradesmen.   Officers of highland units wear sashes over their left shoulders so it doesn't interfere with their claymores (swords) worn slung on crossbelts over their right shoulders.   Non-highland officers wear swords slung on waist belts covered by sashes at the waist.

If a non-infantry NCO of the Calgary Highlanders (other than the above-mentioned appointments) ever wore a scarlet or crimson sash over the left shoulder (or the right), he or she was improperly dressed.

I put a ? after Pipe Major in the above since I don't actually recall a Pipe Major wearing a sword.   But then I'm getting old.

 

[Steel Badger]

I support Ricks point

And since we are pointing out terms of reference......What the army calls a clamore is a std inf pttn officers sword wi' a basket hilt...

Not a true Claiydmhor.....

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I have to say, in support of marshall sl, and with all due respect to Michael Dorosh that the colour of sash for officers is crimson and not purple.

Further, the Pipe Major? and Drum Major (as well as the RSM) of highland units wear sashes over the left shoulder rather than the right because they dress as officers rather than as NCMs and because the Pipes and Drums of highland units have often been treated more as infantry than as other tradesmen.  Officers of highland units wear sashes over their left shoulders so it doesn't interfere with their claymores (swords) worn slung on crossbelts over their right shoulders.  Non-highland officers wear swords slung on waist belts covered by sashes at the waist.

If a non-infantry NCO of the Calgary Highlanders (other than the above-mentioned appointments) ever wore a scarlet or crimson sash over the left shoulder (or the right), he or she was improperly dressed.

I put a ? after Pipe Major in the above since I don't actually recall a Pipe Major wearing a sword.  But then I'm getting old.

The PM did wear a sword on rare occasions when in ceremonial dress.  Thank you, however, for the clarification on the sash details.  I suspect the dress regs are getting a bit murky; the PM and DM wear an officers sash in full dress, but appear to wear Sgt/WO sashes in DEUs, but perhaps I am getting old as well.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/thefinger.jpeg

This is a picture of the Drum Sergeant wearing the red sash.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/drumheller.jpeg

The DM appears to be wearing the WO sash rather than the officer sash.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/dcorps1.JPG

Oh, and just to mix things up, here is the same Drum Sergeant wearing the red sash over the opposite soldier than he is wearing it in picture one....

 

[Rick Goebel]

Once upon a time, I was DCO of the Calgary Highlanders sitting at dinner beside the 2i/c of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (not "of C").  He at one point asked me if we had ever had all of our officers in the same place at the same time dressed the same.  I said "no", and he said "good, neither have we".  This illustrates the problem of dress in a highland unit.

I sometimes think that the most absurd notion I have ever come across was an attempt in the early nineties by the CF to codify and standardize the dress of guards, highland and rifle regiments of the militia.  They actually hired a number of Class B or C reserve Majors and Lieutenant Colonels to work on this in Ottawa for a year.  I won't even comment on my opinion of anyone who would even take a job like this.  At the end, however, they produced a new set of dress regulations and the guards, highland and rifle regiments made rude gestures and just carried on with what they had always done.

Imposing order on the general dress of guards, highland and rifle regiments, however, is child's play compared to doing it for Pipes and Drums.  Michael Dorosh's pictures make this point clearly.

I was once told by an older and wiser officer (RCR no less) that "officers don't have uniforms, they have ensembles".  This is even more true of pipers and drummers.

Worse yet, the Drum Sergeant pictured is a psychologist.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

A psychologist, and, I am pleased to point out, a former commissioned officer, but I edited that out of my original post....

 

[Rick Goebel]

Michael Dorosh wrote:

"A psychologist, and, I am pleased to point out, a former commissioned officer, but I edited that out of my original post....".

I had actually forgotten that and, yes, it does explain a lot.

 

[pbi]

Rick Goebel: I agree with you. The Army has better things to do than worry about the nuances of Regimental dress items, like concentrating on field clothing and equipment. IMHO this dress business is best left to Regiments themselves. What different does it make if Regtl dress items vary from one Highland unit to another? Isn't that the point of "Regimental" distinctions in the first place? Cheers.

 

[Steel Badger]

PBI...I agree completely....


I would go one step further and argue that if Regimental tradition/custom of dress don't interfere with field ops...leave em alone...

Regimental/Corps distinctions = pride in unit=pride in self=enhanced performance......

 

[Black Watch]

Thoses red sashes are worn by sgts and above for one thing:
In brittish army, long time ago, white pieces of repo were worn by brittish nco's to pull the wounded soldiers of battle, nothing else. After time, the rope was, of course, getting socked with blood. That's when the rope gat replaced by a red whool sash to do the same job (the sash was also more comfortable). In Canadian army, the scarlet sash is still worn by snr nco's as a tradition.

 

[Acorn]

Thoses red sashes are worn by sgts and above for one thing:
In brittish army, long time ago, white pieces of repo were worn by brittish nco's to pull the wounded soldiers of battle, nothing else. After time, the rope was, of course, getting socked with blood. That's when the rope gat replaced by a red whool sash to do the same job (the sash was also more comfortable). In Canadian army, the scarlet sash is still worn by snr nco's as a tradition.

Check the sticky on myths etc., or read far enough down the thread to see that your version is incorrect.

Acorn

 

[CH1]

Oh well, have to add my 2 cents.

I have 2 red sashes, 1 from father (major), the other from an Colenol (old friend).  From what I was told the officer's scarlett? (read crimson?) was the replacement for when it was not appropriate to wear sam browne & sword.  The colour is to remind us of the blood of the subordinates that have come before, & there fore to remind us of our responsibilities toward them.

I've heard these variations when I was a Sgt also, along with the aforementioned.

It has piqued my interest & I'll try to find some references.

I think we all agree that it is an honour that carries responsibility with it.

Cheers

 

[Acorn]

Sashes were badges of rank in the 16th/17thC, and that is where the current use derives from. It's as simple as that, no mystical significance or battlefield utility at all. Colours and methods of wear developed with tradition.

acorn

 

[Art Johnson]

I wish that you people would quote a source for your information. An Army Order number would be nice.

 

[Steel Badger]

Art

There is another thread in Mil History that addresses the issue of the sash......and if I remember correctly there were some Army Orders mentioned.

I can give referrences to the practice of European militaries in the 16/17th century as well as the late middle ages as regards to the use of the sash as a mark of rank on the battlefield as well as to the colours each nation used in preference...

I am also still trying to dig up the ref i had as regards to Infantry Sr NCO sashes carrying a stripe of the facing colour of the regiment in the post Waterloo to early 19th C period.

SB

 

[Art Johnson]

My source for the following information is "MILITARY CUSTOMS" written by Maj. T.J. Edwards M.B.E. F.R. Hist. S. and published by Gale and Polden Ltd. in 1954. Maj Edwards was a Member of the Society for Army Historical Research and has written a number of books about the British Army.
Chapter VI of his book deals with Sashes, it is too long for me and my arthritic hands to reproduce in its entirety but I will quote some pertinent extracts.

Page 106- "The custom of wearing sashes, originally as an article for a practical purpose but which developed into a sign of rank, is fairly ancient in England. As far back as the seventeenth century the sash was worn either round the waist or over a shoulder, falling to the opposite side."

"The original purpose of the sash was for carrying of a wounded officer off the field, to which end they were usually made of silk, being strong as well as light, and full enough to enclose the human form."

Page 107- "Clifford Walton in his "History of the British Army, 1600 - 1700" states that "The Sash was worn by all officers from the General down to the Serjeant, whether Horse, Foot or Dragoons."

"The private troopers of Horse also wore sashes, the only exception to the general colour being The Fourth Dragoon Guards, whose sashes were white. Pikemen in Foot Regiments were similarly distinguished by sashes, but of white worsted with a coloured fringe."

Page 108- "The Royal Warrant for Clothing of 19th December, 1768, gave more precise detail in regard to this matter," (there follows a page of descriptions and methods of wearing from 1768 to 1845)

SB, you are correct about the Sr NCO sashes with the stripe of the facing colour of the regiment. This was discontinued in 1845 as it was found that the colours tended to run when they got wet.

 

[Steel Badger]

Sashes as a rank indicator have been around for a long time. They orignated in the ancient world as badges of rank and battlefield identifiers.

Senior Roman Officers (Tribunes and up in the Late Republican to Imperial periods) wore a sash knotted in a distinct fashion around the waist of their muscled cuirass (body armour). Althought the colour of this item is open to debate, it's existance is not, having been well illustrated on burial stelae (statuary) as well as period coinage and monuments. (The altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus and Trajan's column)
>>Imperial Rome at War Windrow and McBride, Concord Publications. 1996 pp. 14-15
>>The Roman Army from Caeser to Trajan 1984 (Osprey MAA 46)  by M. Simkins PP. 36-7
>>The Complete Roman Army, A. Goldsworthy, Thames and Hudson 2003 pp. 44-45, 61
>>Warrior's of Rome. M. Simkins, 1992 Blandford p.80-81

The picture is of a re-enactor from the Ermine Street Guard in Britain dressed as a Senior Officer and armed with the Parazonium, the senior officer's side arm.

It has also been suggested that this sash was also worn by Centurion's during the 1st to 3rd century AD. Cetainly some evidence has been introduced to suggest that senior Centurions of  Auxhiliary Cohort's in Britain did wear the sash as well as a mark of rank.(there is no firm evidence that Legionary Centurions followed this practice.)

 

[a_majoor]

See how deep the roots of the RCR really are?  ;D

 

[Steel Badger]

Legio II Minutiae

Raised in 1 Ad by the Emperor Augutus

Disbanded by Handrian for trying to paint his pecious wall blue, black and yellow!

>

 

[BernDawg]

Gentlemen this is an absolutley fascinating thread.   I have read it from the top and am enthralled with the wealth of information out there.   There is certainly no doubt as to the origins of the sash as an indicator of rank and/or status in almost all armies of the old world.
     I thought I would throw this in to further the lines of discussion.   I was told, sometime, in my early career that the sash, in it's current form, was red or scarlett iin rememberance of the "thin red line" of infantry at Balaclava and thus only worn by the infantry units in the commonwealth.   To this day I have heard no other explanation of the sash or colour.   The most astonishing of which would be the carrying of wounded off the field by Officers and Snr NCOs.(Isn't that what the band was for?)   I believe, even then, they would feel compelled to stay in the fray and conduct the battle to the best of their abillity.
Thanks.

 

[Steel Badger]

The colour issue is a very simple thing indeed......

Colour of sash was chosen based based on preferrence, (either nationally or sometimes by corps as in the sky blue sashes of the RAF regiment.) The English tended towards red or scarlet, much as the French preferred Grey or Blue.
(The rank stripes of the tunicae of Roman Tribunes or Legates was "Imperial " Purple.....while Roman Armour from the Republic to the late Empire was most often Tinned to give a silvery "Flash" appearence."

Christopher Duffy's book "Warfare in the Age of Reason" (Wordsworth 1987)  covers the issue in greater detail.

As to the "Thin Red Line", I believe you have heard one of the many many "truths" out there about why soldiers do or wear certain things...check out the great thread by Mike O'leary.

As far as battlefield evac , I think it stems from a reference to the fact that British officers who became casualties were often evaced to the rear using their own sash (given its volume) as an aid. Certainly this would have only been possible during the period when Officers wore shoulder sashes similar to those worn by Officers of Highland Units today. When the waist sashes (of different material and construction) were introduced, such a feat would not have been possible.....

As far as Senior NCOs, during the period  that most stories indicate the "sash" was used to evac troops, Senior Ncos wore shoulder sashes and could not easily remove them to evac cas. In any event , Senior NCO's fell in to the rear of the battle line and kept the ranks closed up, they would noit have had time to evac.

('Old on Private Bloggins, Ol' Sarge 'ull get ya to the rear....but first let me tak off me crossbelts an canteen and pack...oh and give me half pike to yer mate so he can keep the files closed...)