Re-enrollment of Previously Commissioned member?

[Clockstick]

I was with the CIC for several years and worked full time with them on class  B for nearly half of those.
I was commissioned in 2003 to the rank of 2Lt and Released in 2010 based on the recruiting centre telling me that I was not eligible for component transfer (which I still can not figure out why). And then the next day swore in as a Regular force officer.

Now I left the CIC getting Paid full time Captains pay with a house, no spouse, and was told that No R&Q would be paid.
When attending BMOQ I was paying rations which was more than 5 times that of quarters to which I did not pay. I was also being paid as an OCDT.

Now I attempted to get answers through the CFLRS Chain of command however received no feedback.

I was wondering if anyone knows If I should have been able to component transfer? (possible redress)
If My pay level and rank was incorrect due to the commission i received as a CIC officer?

Any references you could find to help me find the correct regulations regarding this?
The CBI's only speak of former NCM service in the appointment of pay and incentive levels.

Thank You

 

[CountDC]

Here is a start point.  http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5002/3_e.asp

Don't know what you hope to gain by a redress though as you were in the next day anyways.  CT does not mean you get to keep your rank or anything else.

The paying of rations and not quarters was correct in your case.

Pay level and rank is complicated and without access to your file no one here can really give you a 100% answer. 

If you are really stuck on the pay and rank (which is the real issue) then submit a letter of enquiry into how this was calculated in your case.  These are little used by members (they tend to jump right into redresses for some reason) and get much faster answers.  With the answer from that you will be able to better determine the next course of action.  Don't jump to a redress right away if not happy.  If you still feel you were wronged then do up a letter again requesting what you think your pay and rank should have been, why and submit it.  Often this gets faster results than a redress.

 

[Clockstick]

CountDC

Thank you for your input, I was (correct me if this is not correct) under the understanding but rank can be lowered and changed on CT, but your pay level will never be reduced from what you were previously making, this has been the case for every CT i know.

As for the Rank, I held a commission still as that was not required to be turned in upon my release. I was under the understanding that you can not be demoted to an rank lower than 2Lt while still holding a Queens Commission. This would be the basis of the pay error.

The underlying thing here for me is the fact that the Recruiting centre gave me the incorrect info regarding R&Q and I budgeted incorrectly because of it, causing me some pretty difficult financial difficulties as a result. I understand now that what I paid for R&Q was correct however was unprepared for it.

Thanks again for your insight(s).

 

[PMedMoe]

The paying of rations and not quarters was correct in your case.

I believe it was.  He stated "a house, no spouse", so due to his having a mortgage, his cost for quarters was waived, however, with no dependents, rations still must be paid as he is not covering the cost of groceries for anyone at home.

 

[Clockstick]

I understand now that the Rations and quarters were according to the Reg's properly administered in my case the troubling part is that I based my budget off of the recruiting centres information that neither would be paid.

The question that is still at large is;

Can anyone tell me if there is another location on how the handling of a CT of Reserve Force Officer to the Regular force is handled.

And

If there are any provisions for a previously commissioned officer to Re-Enroll in the forces, if so what supporting documents are there?

Thanks,

 

[navymich]

Thank you for your input, I was (correct me if this is not correct) under the understanding but rank can be lowered and changed on CT, but your pay level will never be reduced from what you were previously making, this has been the case for every CT i know.

As was explained to me when I did a CT:  it is voluntary and therefore your pay will be adjusted to match your new rank.  This is sometimes confused for those who, for example, are required to remuster due to medical, their pay would remain the same.  I believe there is also a provision that, upon a CT, you will remain at your old pay until you start your training.  Sorry, I don't have the reference for that at this moment, but maybe a clerk is around who can clear some of this up.

 

[CountDC]

ah - now I understand better what the issue is, missed that the first time.  My apologies.

There is a regulation in which a commission can be put in suspension and reinstated once the member is promoted again.  Can't remember all the details off the top so will try to find it next week.  It was in place to enable members to transfer in as OCdts.  I believe it is buried in the QR&O's.

Will have to look at current regs for pay protection as things have changed so much and fast the last few years.  Last case I had was at least 5 years ago and at that time it was not automatic for CT.

Will try to kick the clerk brain into gear next week, coming back from 9 months off and am still in first gear(or maybe park).

My sympathies on the R&Q misunderstanding, for seem reason errors are happening a lot in that area. 

One point that may harm a redress is that you were made an offer and accepted it.  They generally view it that if you had a problem with the offer then you should have refused it and requested a reassessment and new one.  In my case I did request course qualifications be reinstated after the fact and it was granted but they stressed it was an exception to the rule and not standard practice.  Never know what a ROG will bring and better to ask, worse thing that can happen is they say no.

 

[agc]

Please don't shoot the messenger.

As for the Rank, I held a commission still as that was not required to be turned in upon my release. I was under the understanding that you can not be demoted to an rank lower than 2Lt while still holding a Queens Commission. This would be the basis of the pay error.

From QR&O 11.12

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member of the Reserve Force who applies for transfer:

(a) between sub-components of the Reserve Force;
(b) between units of the same sub-component of the Reserve Force; or
(c) to the Regular Force;

may, with the approval of the officer authorizing the transfer, relinquish any rank held by him and revert to a lower rank where the conditions under which he may transfer preclude his acceptance in the rank that he holds.

With clarification from CMP Instr 03/08

Note: IAW QR&O article 11.12; officers may relinquish their commission to facilitate their entry into a program (e.g., ROTP). The officer’s commission is then considered ‘suspended’. It is ‘revived’ when the member is promoted again to a commissioned rank.

 

[Clockstick]

Thank you for the information, I had found some of that but not the potion regarding suspension of commission.


So now the only questions I have left is if anyone knows of any policy that forces a complete release and reinrollment vis component transfer?

And if I had CT'd what would have been the benefits of protection of pay?


Thank You for your help thus far it has helped me learn much about the admin instructions!

 

[agc]

A CT involves releasing from one component and enrolling in another on the very next day, so that there is no break in service.

As for pay protection, there is no pay protection on transfer from the Res F to the Reg F.

See sec 4.5 in this link:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/doc/03-08-eng.pdf

 

[QM]

Interesting thread. I was not aware that Cadet Instructors were considered Commissioned Officers. I knew they wore the uniform and the rank, but did not realize they were Commissioned.  I truly thought it was simply a volunteer thing, like being a Scoutmaster, as opposed to a screened and tested Commission, following OCS. Now I know better!!

I hope you are enjoying your new career; welcome aboard.

 

[Strike]

Based on a quick perusal of agc's link I think you may be SOL regarding the rank/pay protection.  The reference basically says CIC and Supp Res are required to go through the full application process at a recruiting centre, which infers that it's not a normal CT.  Also, it's not like you're going to your identical trade in the Reg Force, which would allow you to argue keeping the rank/pay.  There is no equivalent trade/training in the Reg Force that could be compared to the CIC.  Whereas an Infantry Captain (Res) would likely be able to keep his rank if he were to CT, unless his training differed significantly from the Reg Force qualifications for the same rank.