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Rebuild Basic Officer training: {SPLIT from:] Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

Eye In The Sky

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Yeah I think he's in a tough spot - personally I expected more from Gen. E, but public statements are often cleared by Legal and PA.
I would hope the CAF makes a direct outreach to Mark with a lot more than what was public.

I will say MGen Friday (ret) 's new job at sean-friday-joins-sts-pr STS Capital Partners hopefully gets a little rocky now -- and ever single one of his pictures either in uniform or out had always made me want to punch him in the face.

If "the CAF" wants to be seen as, or even BE personable, sorrowful etc...the people doing the speaking can't talk like robots. Legal and PA are advisors, I get it but...sometimes their advice might be counter-productive to the overall goal.

In the CAFs case, at this time in Canadian history, I think "we" need to be seen as sincere and "human".

I'm sure after reading the story, a few people share the punch in the face sentiment, and might not limit it to any one single person in the story. Those Cadets sure could use a visit to the low ground....
 

Halifax Tar

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My personal opinion:

1. Senior Canadian Army leadership was pedestrian to weak; junior leadership, Moncel and Hoffmeister etc are good examples, was fair to outstanding;
2. RCAF Leadership was, generally, good but didn't have much chance to shine in operations because the biggest RCAF formation in battle was a Group, I think, but men like Leckie who organized and managed the Commonwealth Air Training plan were, clearly, first rate commanders/leaders/managers; and
3. The RCN had downright toxic leadership at the very top ~ Nelles and Jones ~ but, arguably, the BEST Canadian commander, ever, under any circumstances, was RAdm Leonard W Murray who may have done more to win WWII than all the other admirals and generals combined ... he was then hounded out of the Navy and the country because Jones told the politicians that he was to blame for the Halifax riots (that was a lie, Murray hod no command authority ashore in Halifax.

Thanks ERC I appreciate your input! I knew the RCN was a mess for leadership. Weren't we told at one point to go back to the barn and sort our selves out ?

Back on the opic... It's time to close RMC... Change my mind ;)
 
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daftandbarmy

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If "the CAF" wants to be seen as, or even BE personable, sorrowful etc...the people doing the speaking can't talk like robots. Legal and PA are advisors, I get it but...sometimes their advice might be counter-productive to the overall goal.

In the CAFs case, at this time in Canadian history, I think "we" need to be seen as sincere and "human".

I'm sure after reading the story, a few people share the punch in the face sentiment, and might not limit it to any one single person in the story. Those Cadets sure could use a visit to the low ground....


"If you look at great human civilizations, from the Roman Empire to the Soviet Union, you will see that most do not fail simply due to external threats but because of internal weakness, corruption, or a failure to manifest the values and ideals they espouse."

- Cory Booker
 

Edward Campbell

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Thanks ERC I appreciate your input! I knew the RCN was a mess for leadership. Weren't we told at one point to go back to the barn and sort our selves out ?

Back on the opic... It's time to close RMC... Change my mind ;)

In early 1941 the Brits, on Murray's advice, told the Canadians that they were expanding too quickly. There was, simply, no way that Canada could crew the number of corvettes it was building. But, too quickly or not, those corvettes were needed and Ottawa was unwilling to allow mixed Brit-Canadian crewing which was the Brits' preferred course of action. But by late 1941/early '42 it was obvious that Canada's training system was deficient broken. Ships were withdrawn from service so that officers and POs could be given some extra training in the UK and, equally importantly, so that the. Canadian corvettes could be refitted to be closer to Brit standards ~ better armament and electronics ~ and, starting in mid/late '42 (I think) their foc's'les could be extended to back behind the bridge. That was a major mod which made a vast improvement to both seakeeping and habitability.

I think I agree with you re: RMC. Maybe we need a 100% rethink of the whys and hows of production of officers. More to follow ...
 

AKa

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The problem with RMC and CMR is that they are really the only place Anglophone officers receive regular language training over a sustained period. Since language profiles trump leadership and competence, charm school is the primary producer of anglo officers with upward mobility. In the general Canadian population, bilingualism (English/French) outside of Quebec is largely restricted to the higher socio-economic layers. It is not a requirement that supports diversity.

As a graduate, I have very mixed emotions about the institution. Of course, I also consider the OLA to be a contributor to the crisis in leadership in both the military and the PS.

My 2 cents worth...
 

dapaterson

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The OLA isn't a crisis. The environment is known for multiple decades. It's unwillingness.

Want a better French profile? Volunteer for a posting to a French language unit. Talk with your Francophone peers, superiors and subordinates in French (and make mistakes, and be corrected, and improve).

Or wah wah wah I can only learn if I'm given time off work.
 

daftandbarmy

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The problem with RMC and CMR is that they are really the only place Anglophone officers receive regular language training over a sustained period. Since language profiles trump leadership and competence, charm school is the primary producer of anglo officers with upward mobility. In the general Canadian population, bilingualism (English/French) outside of Quebec is largely restricted to the higher socio-economic layers. It is not a requirement that supports diversity.

As a graduate, I have very mixed emotions about the institution. Of course, I also consider the OLA to be a contributor to the crisis in leadership in both the military and the PS.

My 2 cents worth...

Anyone can learn languages online these days. I don't know why we have to make the whole process so complicated and expensive.
 

SupersonicMax

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The OLA isn't a crisis. The environment is known for multiple decades. It's unwillingness.

Want a better French profile? Volunteer for a posting to a French language unit. Talk with your Francophone peers, superiors and subordinates in French (and make mistakes, and be corrected, and improve).

Or wah wah wah I can only learn if I'm given time off work.
You mean like every francophone in the military has to do?
 

dapaterson

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Had that discussion with two Cols, an EX3 and myself once. One Col and the EX3 complained that it's too hard to speak your second language day to day, and therefore their skills faded between testing , so they needed six months off work to learn French again every five years.

Me: Yeah, I can't imagine how hard working in your second language every day would be like. (Pause, turn to look at the other Col) Can you imagine what that would be like, Francois?

The room got awkwardly quiet after that...
 

Edward Campbell

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Back on the opic... It's time to close RMC... Change my mind ;)
Perhaps it is time to totally rethink how and why we produce officers for the Canadian Forces.

Let’s start with the why.

One hopes it’s a bit obvious but leaders and commanders are needed and experience says they don’t just spring up, as if by magic, when needed. They need to be (and they can be) trained.

The way we train ship’s captains and Army regimental commanders and the commanders of squadrons is b y giving them progressively more challenging and responsible positions starting as junior leaders (and as line pilots). If all we need is combat efficiency and we didn’t have to train our own leaders then we could be like the French Foreign Legion and warrant officers would command our combat platoons and even companies. But we are not the Foreign Legion, we need to “grow” our own leaders from within.

Let’s start by saying that the system we have used for 145 years has, in recent years, produced toxic ‘leaders’ who have nearly destroyed the institution that are meant to serve and lead.

Let us build a totally new system.

Let us begin by saying that ALL general service officers will be recruited from young men and women of good character and sound mind and body who have not yet reached their 21st birthdays. (No exceptions, ever, for anyone, Charter rights be damned (and subjected to the Notwithstanding clause).) These young men and women will serve in the ranks for at least two years and may apply for officer training after two years but before they reach the age of 25.

Those selected will for officer training will have good records as sailors, soldiers and aviators, pretty clean conduct sheets and will have a letter of acceptance from a recognized Canadian university on one of several approved programmes (sorry, children, we don’t need anyone with a degree in journalism, education or gender studies, you’ll all have to pass math at the 200 level.)

The officer selection course will be about 8 months long. It will be visible to other member of the Canadian Forces and it will demonstrate that aspiring officers are tough and motivated ~ no one else will be willing to attempt, much less to pass, such a course.

After competing the long, gruelling “basic leadership/selection” course the candidates will be commissioned as Acting Sub-Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenants and will go off to university for four years. While in university that will serve in local reserve Navy or Army (or RCAF when one is available) units in “apprentice” officer roles ~ maybe we will need to reinvent UNTD and COTC. During the three summer periods they will undergo special to service/branch courses at CF schools, including flying training.

On completion of both university and service/branch training the junior officers will serve 2 to 5 years in first line units as 2Lts (one year) and Lts (and RCN equivalents). Promotion to captain and major (and equivalent) will be ONLY by a combination of performance and examination.

Junior officers (2Lts to Captains (and equivalents)) will be aged 23 (in a few exceptional cases) to about 35. Majors will be 30 to 45. Commanders, Colonels and GOFOs will be 40+. It will be normal to be promoted to Commander/Lieutenant Colonel and take command of a major warship, a regiment or a RCAF squadron at age 35 to 40 after more than 12 years of commissioned service.

There will be a separate stream for CFR officers, some of whom will be, largely, indistinguishable from GSOs, but, in effect, ALL General Service Officers will be UTPNCM but attending a civvy university because there will not be a Royal Military College or a College Militaire Royale.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Perhaps it is time to totally rethink how and why we produce officers for the Canadian Forces.

Let’s start with the why.

One hopes it’s a bit obvious but leaders and commanders are needed and experience says they don’t just spring up, as if by magic, when needed. They need to be (and they can be) trained.

The way we train ship’s captains and Army regimental commanders and the commanders of squadrons is b y giving them progressively more challenging and responsible positions starting as junior leaders (and as line pilots). If all we need is combat efficiency and we didn’t have to train our own leaders then we could be like the French Foreign Legion and warrant officers would command our combat platoons and even companies. But we are not the Foreign Legion, we need to “grow” our own leaders from within.

Let’s start by saying that the system we have used for 145 years has, in recent years, produced toxic ‘leaders’ who have nearly destroyed the institution that are meant to serve and lead.

Let us build a totally new system.

Let us begin by saying that ALL general service officers will be recruited from young men and women of good character and sound mind and body who have not yet reached their 21st birthdays. (No exceptions, ever, for anyone, Charter rights be damned (and subjected to the Notwithstanding clause).) These young men and women will serve in the ranks for at least two years and may apply for officer training after two years but before they reach the age of 25.

Those selected will for officer training will have good records as sailors, soldiers and aviators, pretty clean conduct sheets and will have a letter of acceptance from a recognized Canadian university on one of several approved programmes (sorry, children, we don’t need anyone with a degree in journalism, education or gender studies, you’ll all have to pass math at the 200 level.)

The officer selection course will be about 8 months long. It will be visible to other member of the Canadian Forces and it will demonstrate that aspiring officers are tough and motivated ~ no one else will be willing to attempt, much less to pass, such a course.

After competing the long, gruelling “basic leadership/selection” course the candidates will be commissioned as Acting Sub-Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenants and will go off to university for four years. While in university that will serve in local reserve Navy or Army (or RCAF when one is available) units in “apprentice” officer roles ~ maybe we will need to reinvent UNTD and COTC. During the three summer periods they will undergo special to service/branch courses at CF schools, including flying training.

On completion of both university and service/branch training the junior officers will serve 2 to 5 years in first line units as 2Lts (one year) and Lts (and RCN equivalents). Promotion to captain and major (and equivalent) will be ONLY by a combination of performance and examination.

Junior officers (2Lts to Captains (and equivalents)) will be aged 23 (in a few exceptional cases) to about 35. Majors will be 30 to 45. Commanders, Colonels and GOFOs will be 40+. It will be normal to be promoted to Commander/Lieutenant Colonel and take command of a major warship, a regiment or a RCAF squadron at age 35 to 40 after more than 12 years of commissioned service.

There will be a separate stream for CFR officers, some of whom will be, largely, indistinguishable from GSOs, but, in effect, ALL General Service Officers will be UTPNCM but attending a civvy university because there will not be a Royal Military College or a College Militaire Royale.
I could get onboard with that.
 

daftandbarmy

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Perhaps it is time to totally rethink how and why we produce officers for the Canadian Forces.

Let’s start with the why.

One hopes it’s a bit obvious but leaders and commanders are needed and experience says they don’t just spring up, as if by magic, when needed. They need to be (and they can be) trained.

The way we train ship’s captains and Army regimental commanders and the commanders of squadrons is b y giving them progressively more challenging and responsible positions starting as junior leaders (and as line pilots). If all we need is combat efficiency and we didn’t have to train our own leaders then we could be like the French Foreign Legion and warrant officers would command our combat platoons and even companies. But we are not the Foreign Legion, we need to “grow” our own leaders from within.

Let’s start by saying that the system we have used for 145 years has, in recent years, produced toxic ‘leaders’ who have nearly destroyed the institution that are meant to serve and lead.

Let us build a totally new system.

Let us begin by saying that ALL general service officers will be recruited from young men and women of good character and sound mind and body who have not yet reached their 21st birthdays. (No exceptions, ever, for anyone, Charter rights be damned (and subjected to the Notwithstanding clause).) These young men and women will serve in the ranks for at least two years and may apply for officer training after two years but before they reach the age of 25.

Those selected will for officer training will have good records as sailors, soldiers and aviators, pretty clean conduct sheets and will have a letter of acceptance from a recognized Canadian university on one of several approved programmes (sorry, children, we don’t need anyone with a degree in journalism, education or gender studies, you’ll all have to pass math at the 200 level.)

The officer selection course will be about 8 months long. It will be visible to other member of the Canadian Forces and it will demonstrate that aspiring officers are tough and motivated ~ no one else will be willing to attempt, much less to pass, such a course.

After competing the long, gruelling “basic leadership/selection” course the candidates will be commissioned as Acting Sub-Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenants and will go off to university for four years. While in university that will serve in local reserve Navy or Army (or RCAF when one is available) units in “apprentice” officer roles ~ maybe we will need to reinvent UNTD and COTC. During the three summer periods they will undergo special to service/branch courses at CF schools, including flying training.

On completion of both university and service/branch training the junior officers will serve 2 to 5 years in first line units as 2Lts (one year) and Lts (and RCN equivalents). Promotion to captain and major (and equivalent) will be ONLY by a combination of performance and examination.

Junior officers (2Lts to Captains (and equivalents)) will be aged 23 (in a few exceptional cases) to about 35. Majors will be 30 to 45. Commanders, Colonels and GOFOs will be 40+. It will be normal to be promoted to Commander/Lieutenant Colonel and take command of a major warship, a regiment or a RCAF squadron at age 35 to 40 after more than 12 years of commissioned service.

There will be a separate stream for CFR officers, some of whom will be, largely, indistinguishable from GSOs, but, in effect, ALL General Service Officers will be UTPNCM but attending a civvy university because there will not be a Royal Military College or a College Militaire Royale.

What you've described isn't too far away from the British Army's 'O Type' engagement, which requires service in the ranks for a short time before going through the various selection processes for Sandhurst.

I did RESO (Phase 2, 3 Inf) in Canada before heading off to the UK and entering an O Type engagement for a few months, then Westbury for RCB, RMAS and the regiment after that.

How was it compared to Canada?

Really. Fucking. Hard.
 

dimsum

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The problem with RMC and CMR is that they are really the only place Anglophone officers receive regular language training over a sustained period. Since language profiles trump leadership and competence, charm school is the primary producer of anglo officers with upward mobility. In the general Canadian population, bilingualism (English/French) outside of Quebec is largely restricted to the higher socio-economic layers. It is not a requirement that supports diversity.

As a graduate, I have very mixed emotions about the institution. Of course, I also consider the OLA to be a contributor to the crisis in leadership in both the military and the PS.

My 2 cents worth...
Or go back to every officer getting 7 months (or less, if they can pass exams earlier) of Second Language Training. That was the case until about 2008.

It was done after BMOQ in St-Jean. The folks that came straight from BMOQ hated it because they didn't think sitting around learning grammar was worth it. The folks that OT'd over thought it was amazing that you got paid to learn a language within spitting distance of Montreal.
 

Halifax Tar

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Perhaps it is time to totally rethink how and why we produce officers for the Canadian Forces.

Let’s start with the why.

One hopes it’s a bit obvious but leaders and commanders are needed and experience says they don’t just spring up, as if by magic, when needed. They need to be (and they can be) trained.

The way we train ship’s captains and Army regimental commanders and the commanders of squadrons is b y giving them progressively more challenging and responsible positions starting as junior leaders (and as line pilots). If all we need is combat efficiency and we didn’t have to train our own leaders then we could be like the French Foreign Legion and warrant officers would command our combat platoons and even companies. But we are not the Foreign Legion, we need to “grow” our own leaders from within.

Let’s start by saying that the system we have used for 145 years has, in recent years, produced toxic ‘leaders’ who have nearly destroyed the institution that are meant to serve and lead.

Let us build a totally new system.

Let us begin by saying that ALL general service officers will be recruited from young men and women of good character and sound mind and body who have not yet reached their 21st birthdays. (No exceptions, ever, for anyone, Charter rights be damned (and subjected to the Notwithstanding clause).) These young men and women will serve in the ranks for at least two years and may apply for officer training after two years but before they reach the age of 25.

Those selected will for officer training will have good records as sailors, soldiers and aviators, pretty clean conduct sheets and will have a letter of acceptance from a recognized Canadian university on one of several approved programmes (sorry, children, we don’t need anyone with a degree in journalism, education or gender studies, you’ll all have to pass math at the 200 level.)

The officer selection course will be about 8 months long. It will be visible to other member of the Canadian Forces and it will demonstrate that aspiring officers are tough and motivated ~ no one else will be willing to attempt, much less to pass, such a course.

After competing the long, gruelling “basic leadership/selection” course the candidates will be commissioned as Acting Sub-Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenants and will go off to university for four years. While in university that will serve in local reserve Navy or Army (or RCAF when one is available) units in “apprentice” officer roles ~ maybe we will need to reinvent UNTD and COTC. During the three summer periods they will undergo special to service/branch courses at CF schools, including flying training.

On completion of both university and service/branch training the junior officers will serve 2 to 5 years in first line units as 2Lts (one year) and Lts (and RCN equivalents). Promotion to captain and major (and equivalent) will be ONLY by a combination of performance and examination.

Junior officers (2Lts to Captains (and equivalents)) will be aged 23 (in a few exceptional cases) to about 35. Majors will be 30 to 45. Commanders, Colonels and GOFOs will be 40+. It will be normal to be promoted to Commander/Lieutenant Colonel and take command of a major warship, a regiment or a RCAF squadron at age 35 to 40 after more than 12 years of commissioned service.

There will be a separate stream for CFR officers, some of whom will be, largely, indistinguishable from GSOs, but, in effect, ALL General Service Officers will be UTPNCM but attending a civvy university because there will not be a Royal Military College or a College Militaire Royale.

I like it!
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Or we don't have them at all, seriously, this isn't the freakin' 1800's. Burn it down, start anew, one stream, wanna stay a Tier 2 your whole career, no problem, wanna move to higher Tier positions?? .... study, learn your craft and earn it.
 
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