Reconstitution

[dimsum]

Boy. Talk about taking minor factors which have been the sole focus of recent press attention and completely ignoring (once again) the real fundamental issues which have plagued the military for decades rather than just a reporter's limited attention span.

I'd wait until the full interview comes out before assuming those were ignored.

I'm not sure if its my rank, but I suspect its the climate we are in. But It is very unusual for me to say no to something; and now be told ok don't make any decisions let me see what else is available.

May be a rank thing, but I agree it's unlikely. Also, with 10000 or so short, there are more vacant spots too.

 

[Quirky]

Or maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with the CAF.... just a little bit.

Or maybe, just maybe, the sexual assault and EXTREME right-wingers are overblown issues that only mirror what's happening in society?

 

[Remius]

Im currently going through something akin to "contract negations" with the CAF at the present moment.

I have one part of the CAF trying to keep me, and the other trying to get me. And for the past number of weeks its been offers and counter offers, so to speak.

I'm not sure if its my rank, but I suspect its the climate we are in. But It is very unusual for me to say no to something; and now be told ok don't make any decisions let me see what else is available. 3 years ago I would have been told where the express exit is. I am woefully underprepared for this, anyone have a good agent ? This is all very bizarre.

I think it’s the shortage of people. And more importantly qualified people.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'd wait until the full interview comes out before assuming those were ignored.


May be a rank thing, but I agree it's unlikely. Also, with 10000 or so short, there are more vacant spots too.

I think it’s the shortage of people. And more importantly qualified people.

Its defiantly not a modus operandi that I am used to.

 

[dimsum]

Or maybe, just maybe, the sexual assault and EXTREME right-wingers are overblown issues that only mirror what's happening in society?

I don't know about you, but I personally don't want to work alongside those types of folks.

 

[Quirky]

I don't know about you, but I personally don't want to work alongside those types of folks.

Absolutely, but the entirety of it being a “crisis” is overly exaggerated, imo.

 

[dimsum]

Absolutely, but the entirety of it being a “crisis” is overly exaggerated, imo.

Could it be that in this culture (Canadian, not just CAF), more folks are willing to speak up?

So I'll argue that the "crisis" was always there, just not talked about.

 

[btrudy]

There are two primary causes of the retention crisis:

A) An every growing gap between what the CAF is paying and what members can get with civilian employers (also keeping in mind COL differences)
B) Toxic leadership.

Sexual harassment, tolerance of Nazi chuds, etc, that's all a symptom of the toxic leadership. Shitty human beings who have attained positions of power and abuse said power on a myriad of ways. Sometimes that manifests as harassing / assaulting subordinates. Unfortunately, that's the only aspect of this problem that tends to hit the news.

I will say though, I'm really tired of hearing excuses like "Oh it's just as bad everywhere else". We're supposed to be better. Isn't that the entire fucking point of discipline?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Im currently going through something akin to "contract negations" with the CAF at the present moment.

I have one part of the CAF trying to keep me, and the other trying to get me. And for the past number of weeks its been offers and counter offers, so to speak.

I'm not sure if its my rank, but I suspect its the climate we are in. But It is very unusual for me to say no to something; and now be told ok don't make any decisions let me see what else is available. 3 years ago I would have been told where the express exit is. I am woefully underprepared for this, anyone have a good agent ? This is all very bizarre.

On one hand, makes filling operational jobs harder, but means that some jobs that would have been empty otherwise. If this would actually get tied to CAF slowing down ops because of personnel instead of trying to push through regardless would be better. Hopefully we have an institutional come to jesus moment before someone gets hurt unecessarily, or people get put at unecessary levels of risk for non critical tasks.

 

[Quirky]

We're supposed to be better.

On what basis? Our fantastic recruiting and acceptance process that lets in more and more useless trash everyday without any sort of standard?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There are two primary causes of the retention crisis:

A) An every growing gap between what the CAF is paying and what members can get with civilian employers (also keeping in mind COL differences)
B) Toxic leadership.

Sexual harassment, tolerance of Nazi chuds, etc, that's all a symptom of the toxic leadership. Shitty human beings who have attained positions of power and abuse said power on a myriad of ways. Sometimes that manifests as harassing / assaulting subordinates. Unfortunately, that's the only aspect of this problem that tends to hit the news.

I will say though, I'm really tired of hearing excuses like "Oh it's just as bad everywhere else". We're supposed to be better. Isn't that the entire fucking point of discipline?

I don’t know that we tolerant nazi chuds…we don’t have many resources and abilities to catch them on the way in and detect them once they’re in.



Discipline and obedience in the CAF is on a down trend and has been for years. It’s not getting better - this subj was discussed just last Thursday at a WOs “O Go” I was at.

My question was point blank “is the CofC aware of this and if so, what is the intent to deal with and mitigate”.

 

[dimsum]

On what basis? Our fantastic recruiting and acceptance process that lets in more and more useless trash everyday without any sort of standard?

The "jail or military" choice isn't available anymore, so there's that.

And yes, some of those folks did end up having turning around and having great careers. But in today's CAF, they wouldn't be let in.

 

[Underway]

Discipline and obedience in the CAF is on a down trend and has been for years. It’s not getting better - this subj was discussed just last Thursday at a WOs “O Go” I was at.

My question was point blank “is the CofC aware of this and if so, what is the intent to deal with and mitigate”.

Organizational discipline is a leadership failing not a failing of the individual.

But frankly I disagree. We're seeing different discipline issues. Less fistfights, less drunken disorderlies, less AWOL. More insubordination, training failures (behavioural related not skill related) and conduct contrary type issues. At least on my end.

 

[btrudy]

I don’t know that we tolerant nazi chuds…we don’t have many resources and abilities to catch them on the way in and detect them once they’re in.



Discipline and obedience in the CAF is on a down trend and has been for years. It’s not getting better - this subj was discussed just last Thursday at a WOs “O Go” I was at.

My question was point blank “is the CofC aware of this and if so, what is the intent to deal with and mitigate”.

If we don't bother looking for them, then we're tolerating them by default.

Organizational discipline is a leadership failing not a failing of the individual.

But frankly I disagree. We're seeing different discipline issues. Less fistfights, less drunken disorderlies, less AWOL. More insubordination, training failures (behavioural related not skill related) and conduct contrary type issues. At least on my end.

I do think that we're going to need to confront the fact that the "do what I say because I say so" leadership model (and especially the "do as I say not as I do") is becoming increasingly unsuitable for the demographics we're relying on recruiting.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If we don't bother looking for them, then we're tolerating them by default.

How do we look for them more effectively?

Just assume everyone is until proven otherwise? People have rights and privacy - the CAF is still “the government”.

What about being a drug dealer? How do we look for them in the recruiting process?

Re: leaderhip model, you follow all order that aren’t manifestly unlawful. Full stop. I am not required to explain my decisions to a sub - they are required to follow my lawful orders.

Leadership styles are important but not required to issue lawful commands and expect they be followed.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How do we look for them more effectively?

Extensive undercover work is usually the best way to deal with these types of issues, amongst others.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Re: leaderhip model, you follow all order that aren’t manifestly unlawful. Full stop. I am not required to explain my decisions to a sub - they are required to follow my lawful orders.

Leadership styles are important but not required to issue lawful commands and expect they be followed.

I will agree with you on principle, however, the two statements you make are contradictory in the majority of CAF garrison life.

I agree wholeheartedly that in matters of battle and operations this is a non starter. That is what will keep everyone alive and ready to fight another day.

"Because I said so" in garrison is a far more finicky topic. "I know you just got here, but you're posted to Shilo this year.... BISS." "I don't care if it's your daughter thar your wife is giving birth to, you're going to Wainwright...BISS." "I don't care if it's the career course you need for promotion, I can't spare you for PLQ. BISS."

^ That will not fly with most Gen Z recruits. You know why? They have ZERO loyalty to anything but themselves. They are confident. They are well versed in what skills they're bringing to the workforce. They know that we need them more than they need us.

Does that flip 160 years of Canadian Army culture and philosophy on its head? You're damn right. I have had to explain the "why" to a lot of younger folks in the past 5 years than I ever have asked myself in 16. You know what I find fascinating? Once they have a solid reason for doing something a certain way, they fucking do it. And over again. And explain it to their friends. And it becomes normalized.

"Makes sense. OK." Is the response I get that affirms to me they understand both the intent and reason behind the order.

Understanding an order and it's intent is leadership manifest. I'm certain there are thousands of mobniks in Donetsk that are given lawful orders, but have no other understanding or motivation around what those orders mean.

Given a choice between blind obedience or taking a minute to give context and "win" influence over thinking soldiers; I'd take the latter.

 

[Furniture]

I will agree with you on principle, however, the two statements you make are contradictory in the majority of CAF garrison life.

I agree wholeheartedly that in matters of battle and operations this is a non starter. That is what will keep everyone alive and ready to fight another day.

"Because I said so" in garrison is a far more finicky topic. "I know you just got here, but you're posted to Shilo this year.... BISS." "I don't care if it's your daughter thar your wife is giving birth to, you're going to Wainwright...BISS." "I don't care if it's the career course you need for promotion, I can't spare you for PLQ. BISS."

^ That will not fly with most Gen Z recruits. You know why? They have ZERO loyalty to anything but themselves. They are confident. They are well versed in what skills they're bringing to the workforce. They know that we need them more than they need us.

Does that flip 160 years of Canadian Army culture and philosophy on its head? You're damn right. I have had to explain the "why" to a lot of younger folks in the past 5 years than I ever have asked myself in 16. You know what I find fascinating? Once they have a solid reason for doing something a certain way, they fucking do it. And over again. And explain it to their friends. And it becomes normalized.

"Makes sense. OK." Is the response I get that affirms to me they understand both the intent and reason behind the order.

Understanding an order and it's intent is leadership manifest. I'm certain there are thousands of mobniks in Donetsk that are given lawful orders, but have no other understanding or motivation around what those orders mean.

Given a choice between blind obedience or taking a minute to give context and "win" influence over thinking soldiers; I'd take the latter.

I remember when I joined 22 years ago, all my crusty old bosses said essentially the same thing about the dreaded "Millennials" joining. People have always wanted/needed to know "why?", it's not a uniquely "Gen ____" thing.

The real issue we are facing is that there is a labour shortage across the entire Western world, and the way we manage our people is still based on the early industrialization model of "if you don't like it, there are 10 more outside waiting for the job".

Extensive undercover work is usually the best way to deal with these types of issues, amongst others.

Are there enough of them to warrant that kind of resource usage? We might be able to get the CAF to zero douchebags, but at what cost?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Are there enough of them to warrant that kind of resource usage? We might be able to get the CAF to zero douchebags, but at what cost?

They already took away part of the CAF Justice system because the perceptions were that we couldn't manage sexual assaults properly.

I'll assume that this precedent means the costs might be quite high.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

They already took away part of the CAF Justice system because the perceptions were that we couldn't manage sexual assaults properly.

I'll assume that this precedent means the costs might be quite high.

Bingo. We have had our chance to keep a clean house for decades. Somalia really was the start of folks putting the CAF under the microscope, now it's finally come to a head where the GoC, on behalf of the Canadian people, have put their foot down.

"We gave you a chance to fix it your way. Now we're out of time and patience. This is how it's going be...."