Recruits these days
- Thread starter 2FERSapper
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Quality slipping.... been there, done that, got the T-shirt (a couple, actually)
AND YET,
I have personally instructed several dozen soldiers who make me proud of what I do, how I did it, and they have become not only good troops, but good friends, and guys* I would gladly lead (and in a couple of cases now, follow) anywhere, under any conditions.
Yes, the bad apples are getting through, and all too often as a result of poor screening or incompetence at CFRC or elsewhere, but the soldier coming out the other end is (mostly) equipped to do the job required. The only problem I've ever seen isn't at the instructor level, it's with the higher-ups concerned about numbers who say something along the lines of "once they get back their unit, they'll get sorted out. It's our job to teach them the skills, not to make them use the skills."
* Note that, even in today's PC army, I will use "guys" as a gender-neutral term in this case...
- I have seen a recruit on Res crse tell the Crse WO (also the RSS WO and the Regt Recruiting O) "I just don't want to be here, John." as his excuse for sneaking out of barracks to go back to his own comfy bed (he eventually graduated the crse)
- I have witnessed a candidate being jacked up for being drunk on day 2 of QL2, only to hear him tell his Sec Comd that he wasn't drunk, he had cerebral palsy(!!??!!) The same day, I witnessed another candidate being told how to properly hold a C7 rifle in the position of "At Ease", only to hear him ask "What do I do if I can't put 4 fingers along the handguards, Corporal?" (turns out he was missing his right middle finger completely and half his ring finger...)
- I have been ordered to pass a candidate who not only failed to participate in the FTX, but also was responsible for a ND while acting as storesman's assistant on said FTX.
- I have been investigated for harrassment of a candidate on 2 occasions that I know of. 1 told his daddy the colonel that the staff on crse forced everyone to get up at 02:00 to do laps around the barracks, that they only had 2 wool blankets apiece as bedding, and that 2 candidate rooms were missing windows - MPs actually questioned some crse staff and candidates about these allegations.
- A candidate once asked me, in the middle of a lecture on Defensive ops "What if the enemies set off one of your trip flares and you don't want to shoot at them?" This one actually got me yanked out of class the next day and sat down for a lecture from the CSM about how "sarcasm is unbecoming of you as an instructor, and I don't care what you think, Pte XXX will pass this course!" (even after being arrested by the Crse WO for AWOL, this candidate was sent back to unit as a trained soldier...) (this one candidate is worth a whole month of drinking stories in the mess, with the stories of what I had to put up with... almost always answered with "you have got to be f*ckin' kidding!")
- I have seen one of the best officers I've ever served with offer his commission rather than pass a few select candidates, only to be told that it was not his decision to make or to question... (they would re-take their failed PO checks at their home unit...)
AND YET,
I have personally instructed several dozen soldiers who make me proud of what I do, how I did it, and they have become not only good troops, but good friends, and guys* I would gladly lead (and in a couple of cases now, follow) anywhere, under any conditions.
Yes, the bad apples are getting through, and all too often as a result of poor screening or incompetence at CFRC or elsewhere, but the soldier coming out the other end is (mostly) equipped to do the job required. The only problem I've ever seen isn't at the instructor level, it's with the higher-ups concerned about numbers who say something along the lines of "once they get back their unit, they'll get sorted out. It's our job to teach them the skills, not to make them use the skills."
* Note that, even in today's PC army, I will use "guys" as a gender-neutral term in this case...
I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all for your candid, humble opinions.
As a new recruit hopeful, I would like to respond to an item or two in this thread.
During my interview, I was asked specifically would I be able to kill someone in the line of duty. It was laid out very clear to me. My answer was very clear that yes I could or why would I apply?
As an older fellow 43 using the minimum pt standard to myself, I met the minimum requirements upon presenting my application the recuriting proces also the process requires your signature to this fact. I surpassed those minimums during my pt test. After six months now of waiting, I still surpass those minimums but am in now way happy nor in anyway satisfied with my numbers and continually strive to do better.
I found the discussions extremely interesting and will be useful in the future.
Bob
As a new recruit hopeful, I would like to respond to an item or two in this thread.
During my interview, I was asked specifically would I be able to kill someone in the line of duty. It was laid out very clear to me. My answer was very clear that yes I could or why would I apply?
As an older fellow 43 using the minimum pt standard to myself, I met the minimum requirements upon presenting my application the recuriting proces also the process requires your signature to this fact. I surpassed those minimums during my pt test. After six months now of waiting, I still surpass those minimums but am in now way happy nor in anyway satisfied with my numbers and continually strive to do better.
I found the discussions extremely interesting and will be useful in the future.
Bob
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Slim said:
It Didnt Change THAT much on my QL2 (basic training) in 1999.
During our Co-op Course we had several people who near the end just stopped showing up. They were given Discharges from the CF
not the Full 5F Dishonerable Discharge but one that showed they were released for disciplinary reasons... no doubt it will still haunt them if they ever try to get into any kind of government job.. anyways, thats my story...
I am embarrassed that I still am on the merit list.
It sucks that I have already failed before I even had a chance by not even getting selected the first time around.
They didn't really question me on that.
It was more you do understand that you will be requried to go to war and kill people sign here stating you do blah blah blah
It sucks that I have already failed before I even had a chance by not even getting selected the first time around.
They didn't really question me on that.
It was more you do understand that you will be requried to go to war and kill people sign here stating you do blah blah blah
M
marshmanguy
Guest
This thread has made me a little concerned. I'm an army brat, I have many relatives that were or still are in the army, I'm in good physical condition (40 to 50 pushups) but I technically am a member of the nintendo age, despite the face i try to remain healthy. I've never been exposed to combat of any kind. I'm worried if I can hack it, the army is my dream and the one thing I've ever wanted to do this badly. Also, I've been on 4 outward bound courses to date. One was a week long winter course in Thunder Bay, and one was a roving hike with roughly 40 to 60 pounds of equipment, doing roughly 10 to 14 km a day. Should I be worried about BMQ and SQ? I'm not just satisfied with a pass, I want to be good at it. What you've all said has concerned me a little about this. What can I do to increas my exposure to the army and improve my mental and physical toughness?
Bert
Sr. Member
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Marhmanguy
You must understand this is a forum and inherently you'll read various opinions
ranging from the knowledgeable to the uninformed so take it all with a grain of
salt. Generally an opinion is usually what somebody has when they don't
have all the fact. If we had all the facts, then no one would need an opinion.
Having said that, physical training and maintaining a good level of fitnes is
important for you.
When it comes to a BMQ, SQ, and a military career, you will always do the best
you can because that is what you're going to do. You won't need to question
that if you maintain a positive attitude. Thats where YOU end and the
military begins (idealistically in my opinion).
When you enroll in BMQ, you'll learn the important characteristics like teamwork,
perseverence, helping out buddy, drive and purpose, maintaining a sense of humour,
and teamwork. It the building blocks of a unit and a career, usuable anywhere. My
staff in BMQ were people and role models I look up to today.
When you incorporate your attitude, the building blocks you've been taught, the
tactics/technology you've been shown, and the experiences gained, definitely
the perspective you'll have on yourself will be much different.
I'd suggest at this stage not questioning your ability as a soldier. If the lifestyle and
opportunities interest you, then give it a try. Others have with similar doubts,
fears, and succeeded. After BMQ, you'll understand what I mean.
You must understand this is a forum and inherently you'll read various opinions
ranging from the knowledgeable to the uninformed so take it all with a grain of
salt. Generally an opinion is usually what somebody has when they don't
have all the fact. If we had all the facts, then no one would need an opinion.
Having said that, physical training and maintaining a good level of fitnes is
important for you.
When it comes to a BMQ, SQ, and a military career, you will always do the best
you can because that is what you're going to do. You won't need to question
that if you maintain a positive attitude. Thats where YOU end and the
military begins (idealistically in my opinion).
When you enroll in BMQ, you'll learn the important characteristics like teamwork,
perseverence, helping out buddy, drive and purpose, maintaining a sense of humour,
and teamwork. It the building blocks of a unit and a career, usuable anywhere. My
staff in BMQ were people and role models I look up to today.
When you incorporate your attitude, the building blocks you've been taught, the
tactics/technology you've been shown, and the experiences gained, definitely
the perspective you'll have on yourself will be much different.
I'd suggest at this stage not questioning your ability as a soldier. If the lifestyle and
opportunities interest you, then give it a try. Others have with similar doubts,
fears, and succeeded. After BMQ, you'll understand what I mean.
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"Fighting men are not made by coddling. They are made from challenges that pushes them to their limits."
I got it from a science fiction novel, yet I find it true.
I'm one of those guys who need a little bit of pressure to get that extra out of me and most of my career so far, I had NCOs who did challenge me to be the best soldier that I can be.
Yet I hear so many horror stories about terrible instructors and stupid rules and regulations that prevent NCOs from culling out the weak and push the troops so that they can be as best as they can, and should be.
Makes me want to not take PLQ. Why do a job if you can't do it properly, or take pride in it?
I got it from a science fiction novel, yet I find it true.
I'm one of those guys who need a little bit of pressure to get that extra out of me and most of my career so far, I had NCOs who did challenge me to be the best soldier that I can be.
Yet I hear so many horror stories about terrible instructors and stupid rules and regulations that prevent NCOs from culling out the weak and push the troops so that they can be as best as they can, and should be.
Makes me want to not take PLQ. Why do a job if you can't do it properly, or take pride in it?
Bert
Sr. Member
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RFH, I understand where your coming from. Yet, this opinion as its presented might
confuse CF applicants or people considering a career. Every era, if thats a way
to look at it, observes the next or a previous era. No matter what, recruits
from any era will enter the training system, fall under the CF P&Ps, complete initial
training, get posted to a unit, and begin a career. The "weak" and the "strong" come
out of any era. Theres alot of characteristics to consider along the way and during the
career.
confuse CF applicants or people considering a career. Every era, if thats a way
to look at it, observes the next or a previous era. No matter what, recruits
from any era will enter the training system, fall under the CF P&Ps, complete initial
training, get posted to a unit, and begin a career. The "weak" and the "strong" come
out of any era. Theres alot of characteristics to consider along the way and during the
career.
A
aesop081
Guest
RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
Because, if you follow the example of the NCOs who challenged and inspired you, you will challenge and inspire other soldiers like you. The system is sometimes flawed, but, IMHO, you have a duty to take the experiences that you have and use them to motivate new members and mold new recruits. Times have changed but you can still make a difference and be proud of it.
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And I agree with you.aesop081 said:
But I don't think I can stomach letting people who shouldn't pass graduate from courses, because I would be partly responsible for allowing those people to pass.
What happened to 'Never Pass a Fault', eh?
Mind you, I still have not much of time in, so I shouldn't be taking PLQ. (Doesn't stop the system from sending inexperienced troops to PLQ though)
A
aesop081
Guest
RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
And i have been in a long time so let me tell you this:
Do not be discouraged by the situation. I have seen alot of people pass course that shouldn't have. Thats an unfortunate reality. But at the same time you may end up having students who start out weak but end up first rate due to the guidance you have provided. Try not to focus too much on the negatives and focus on the contribution you can make. Sice you are new, take the time to look at your leadership and take note of what you think is good and what you think is bad. Seek out strong leaders and learn from them. You will see what i mean.
never pass a fault ? i think it has been changed to "its our fault you passed".......lol
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aesop - I think these days, the wonderful examples we see in our political masters (and unfortunately that includes some in uniform) makes the phrase read more like "it's not my fault they passed - it's his/hers/budget/command/standards (anywhere but me)!"
"Responsibility must include equal parts authority and accountability. Without that, the word is empty of meaning." (I wish I could remember the source, but it makes very clear what's wrong in too many cases today.)
"Responsibility must include equal parts authority and accountability. Without that, the word is empty of meaning." (I wish I could remember the source, but it makes very clear what's wrong in too many cases today.)
A
aesop081
Guest
Highland Lad said:
I couldn't agree more !
CHIMO !
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Doing well on any course IMO requires nothing more than a good attitude.
As for the fitness standards of recruits these days, I think it should not matter how fit someone is when they join the army so long as they meet that minimal standard. The whole point of BMQ is turn a bag-of-shit NS civvie into a working member of the military. A good BMQ course should have a good PT and dicipline program capable of bring a keen recruit of any level to that of a semi-well trained soldier. Obviously a recruit who is unkeen and a bag of crap is not going to do well and their fitness good or bad won't change this.
As for the fitness standards of recruits these days, I think it should not matter how fit someone is when they join the army so long as they meet that minimal standard. The whole point of BMQ is turn a bag-of-shit NS civvie into a working member of the military. A good BMQ course should have a good PT and dicipline program capable of bring a keen recruit of any level to that of a semi-well trained soldier. Obviously a recruit who is unkeen and a bag of crap is not going to do well and their fitness good or bad won't change this.
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I look at Fitness Standards as a job requirement, and a display of the pride in ones job. A soldier with a low PT standard (on a personal level) is simply displaying their lack of desire to be a soldier, or at least their lack of desire to work work for it. It also proves to be an excellent way to challenge soldiers physically, and mentally.
If someone truely wants to be a soldier, they will work for it. If they fail to meet requirements on course, its showing that they simply dont care enough to put the effort in, and therefore should be searching out a different occupation (At least on a Res level). I have very limited experience with the reg force, so I'll leave that open to those who do.
If someone truely wants to be a soldier, they will work for it. If they fail to meet requirements on course, its showing that they simply dont care enough to put the effort in, and therefore should be searching out a different occupation (At least on a Res level). I have very limited experience with the reg force, so I'll leave that open to those who do.
M
MASS
Guest
I Agree with a fellow member with his quote "Just because someone enters the army weak does not mean they will be bad soldiers. As long as recruits are presented with a solid progression in PT, and have some motivation, they will be able to reach a good level of physical fitness." In my opinion some of you people have to wake up. Just because you think the guy/girl beside you is a bag of sh#! does not mean that when the cr#! hits the fan this person won't be the one saving your little behind! Remember if they can train monkeys to fly they sure the hell can train a recruit to be come a soilder. When I was in the Army I can tell you numerous times of when somthing went bad and the preppy top shape boys ran for the barracks and the fat boy stuck around to take on the challenge and help a fellow member. What I am trying to get at is give some of these people a chance you might be quite surprised. (Plus what would training be without a few S##T magnets!);D
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They get their chance. That's what basic training is for. The problem now is that as the standards get lower and lower, we get more and more people making it through the system who should have been booted out. So when do you stop "giving them a chance"? When their incompetence or inabilities get themselves or someone else killed?
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