Refusal to Work

[army]

Posted by "Steven R Clark" <[email protected]> on Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:45:17 -0400
Civilians have it. What methods does a service person have to refuse
unsafe or unhealthy practices?
Steve Clark
CFB Petawawa, Ontario
Civilians have it. What methods does a
service
person have to refuse unsafe or unhealthy practices?
Steve ClarkCFB Petawawa,
Ontario
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <[email protected]> on Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:33:12 -0400
I‘m not sure exactly what the reference would be, but every supervisor
has a duty to protect the well-being of their subordinates. Recently a
military engineering officer was court-martialled and demoted for
failing to ensure safe working conditions which led to a sapper being
electrocuted.
Any service member who thinks they are being subjected to unsafe working
conditions should speak out. In some cases, the supervisor may not be
aware of the hazard.
But, one also has to be aware that military service is often accompanied
by conditions that a civilian would consider hazardous. A sapper on a
mine clearance job could not refuse to enter the minefield because of
the dangers of explosion.
It‘s a grey area to be sure, but one that needs communication between
supervisor and subordinate to ensure that everyone is doing their duty.
Mike
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
regimentalrogue.tripod.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven R Clark
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Refusal to Work
Civilians have it. What methods does a service person have to refuse
unsafe or unhealthy practices?
Steve Clark
CFB Petawawa, Ontario
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I‘m not sure exactly what the reference
would be,
but every supervisor has a duty to protect the well-being of their
subordinates.
Recently a military engineering officer was court-martialled and demoted
for
failing to ensure safe working conditions which led to a sapper being
electrocuted.
Any service member who thinks they are
being
subjected to unsafe working conditions should speak out. In some cases,
the
supervisor may not be aware of the hazard.
But, one also has to be aware that
military service
is often accompanied by conditions that a civilian would consider
hazardous. A
sapper on a mine clearance job could not refuse to enter the minefield
because
of the dangers of explosion.
It‘s a grey area to be sure, but one
that needs
communication between supervisor and subordinate to ensure that everyone
is
doing their duty.
Mike
2001 Canadian Military History
Calendar
regimentalrogue.tripod.com
----- Original Message -----
From:
Steven
R Clark

To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19,
2000 5:45
PM
Subject: Refusal to Work

Civilians have it. What methods does
a service
person have to refuse unsafe or unhealthy practices?

Steve ClarkCFB Petawawa,
Ontario
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[army]

Posted by "Steven R Clark" <[email protected]> on Tue, 19 Sep 2000 20:58:15 -0400
Hi Mike,
I know of the case of which you speak. That particular case was at the
heart of a discussion today. Had the sapper refused the work, claiming
it was unsafe, my belief is that the one giving the order would be the
same one to raise the charge of disobeying a lawful command, or
whatever else. The question that arose was this: If he refused, and was
subsequently charged, who makes the final decision s to whether or not
the job would of been safe, thus giving him reasonable grounds to refuse
the work? This case was, as it unfortunately turned out, took a life to
prove it. But, if the job was never done, what proof would there of
been?
Steve
Hi Mike,
I know of the caseof which you
speak. That
particular case was at the heart of a discussion today. Had the sapper
refused
the work, claiming it was unsafe, my belief is that the one giving the
order
would be the same one to raise the charge of disobeying a lawful
command, or
whatever else. The question that arose was this: If he refused, and was
subsequently charged, who makes the final decision s to whether or not
the job
would of been safe, thus giving him reasonable grounds to refuse the
work? This
case was, as it unfortunately turned out, took a life to prove it. But,
if the
job was never done, what proof would there of been?
Steve
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[army]

Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Sep 2000 00:06:57 -0400
Steve,
You pose a question which is difficult to analyse in a vacuum. My first
question would be, what about the other members of the chain of command
in that incident, or similar cases? I would hope that the soldier,
feeling that a hazard exists can seek advice or support from someone
other than the individual giving the order. Ultimately, the final
determination may have to be left to a Delegated Officer during a
summary trial, or a CO if a Summary Investigation is ordered as a result
of the refusal. There is certainly no easy answer. I do think, however,
that you and your peers are doing exactly what is needed at this time,
discussing the possibilities. An awareness of such situations are as
important to our leaders as discussion of tactical or ethical dilemmas.
Perhaps we need a more direct approach to instruction and execution of
risk assessment in all contexts for commanders at all levels. I have
noticed in my readings that the US Army does just that, every training,
administrative, and operational task is subjected to a risk analysis -
and they focus on minimizing the risk to the soldier, not the risk to
the officers‘ career.
Mike
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Steve,
You pose a question which is difficult
to analyse
in a vacuum. My first question would be, what about the other members of
the
chain of command in that incident, or similar cases? I would hope that
the
soldier, feeling that a hazard exists can seek advice or support from
someone
other than the individual giving the order. Ultimately, the final
determination
may have to be left to a Delegated Officer during a summary trial, or a
CO if a
Summary Investigation is ordered as a result of the refusal. There is
certainly
no easy answer. I do think, however, that you and your peers are doing
exactly
what is needed at this time, discussing the possibilities. An awareness
of such
situations are as important to our leaders asdiscussion of
tactical or
ethical dilemmas. Perhaps we need amore direct approach to
instruction and
execution of risk assessment in all contexts for commanders at all
levels. I
have noticed in my readings that the US Army does just that, every
training,
administrative, and operational task is subjected to a risk analysis -
and they
focus on minimizing the risk to the soldier, not the risk to the
officers‘
career.
Mike
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[army]

Posted by "Jay Digital" <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:11:38 -0400
any soldier has the right to refuse illegal orders and also has the
right to demand the proper safety precautions be taken before doing any
work that has a certain degree of danger.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven R Clark
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Refusal to Work
Civilians have it. What methods does a service person have to refuse
unsafe or unhealthy practices?
Steve Clark
CFB Petawawa, Ontario
any soldier has the
right to refuse
illegal orders and also has the right to demand the proper safety
precautions be
taken before doing any work that has a certain degree of
danger.
----- Original Message -----
From:
Steven
R Clark

To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19,
2000 5:45
PM
Subject: Refusal to Work

Civilians have it. What methods does
a service
person have to refuse unsafe or unhealthy practices?

Steve ClarkCFB Petawawa,
Ontario
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "dave" <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:35:19 -0700
A soldier always had the option of redressing any situation, that was
questionable. We were always taught to do the job, then complain
afterwards. In the case of obvious safety concerns, above and beyond
training and experience, that would be a hard call. In the case of a
sapper in a minefield, they are trained for that, it is part of our
bread and butter. As for a situation where one is electrocuted, could
it even be forseen, if so then every safety measure needs to be
followed. there will always be situations where accidents and incidents
occur, we can only hope we are lead by competant and knowledgable
leaders. we have to trust in them, but they are still only human.
chimo
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
A soldier always had the option of
redressing any
situation, that was questionable. We were always taught to do the
job,
then complain afterwards. In the case of obvious safety concerns,
above
and beyond training and experience, that would be a hard call. In
the case
of a sapper in a minefield, they are trained for that, it is part of our
bread
and butter. As for a situation where one is electrocuted, could it
even be
forseen, if so then every safety measure needs to be followed.
there will
always be situations where accidents and incidents occur, we can only
hope we
are lead by competant and knowledgable leaders. we have to trust
in them,
but they are still only human.
chimo
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <[email protected]> on Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:31:33 -0700
It is funny, the paths that our lives take, and the circles that the
paths take us in. I spent many years doing things that civilians think
of as dangerous, but I never really thought of as dangerous. Sure,
firing howitzers "danger close", or working with recruits on a small
arms range especially SMG C1s, or working a bay on a grenade range may
require a heightened sense of awareness, but I never considered them
outright dangerous. I trusted my training, and superiors, and peers, to
do things properly. Looking back, things I instructed my soldiers to do
concerning "safety" was more part of my job, and practical, than it was
for safety‘s sake. Things like not sleeping under vehicles in the field,
handling ammunition properly, refueling properly, using the buddy
system, to watch for frostbite. Now, part of my civilian occupation
involves being a "Safety Director" at a manufacturing facility. These
types of operations never would have appeared dangerous to me. There are
hundreds of hazards that exist in any manufacturing facility, maybe even
thousands. Chemicals, forklifts, pinch points, moving equipment. Now I
see the other side of the coin, and boy is it different. In addition the
people don‘t have the rigorous training that we did in the military, and
boy do I see some careless, stupid, irresponsible stunts, every day. I
have seen far more people injured in industrial settings, than I did in
13 years in the Military. I guess, after my rambling, my point is this -
yes it exists, in the civilian world, probably because, believe it or
not, it is needed more. They, generally, have far more dangerous
operations excluding combat, obviously, far less training, and more of
a chance for having a knucklehead as a Supervisor. Like most of the
others said, when the rare need does exist, hopefully, the unlawful
order/redress/chain-of-command/training, etc., will provide enough of a
safety net no pun intended to make these incidents few and far
between, and correctable, when they do occur.
Ubique
M J MacFarlane
----- Original Message -----
From: dave
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Refusal to Work
A soldier always had the option of redressing any situation, that was
questionable. We were always taught to do the job, then complain
afterwards. In the case of obvious safety concerns, above and beyond
training and experience, that would be a hard call. In the case of a
sapper in a minefield, they are trained for that, it is part of our
bread and butter. As for a situation where one is electrocuted, could
it even be forseen, if so then every safety measure needs to be
followed. there will always be situations where accidents and incidents
occur, we can only hope we are lead by competant and knowledgable
leaders. we have to trust in them, but they are still only human.
chimo
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
It is funny, the paths
that our
lives take, and the circles that the paths take us in. I spent many
years doing
things that civilians think of as dangerous, but I never really thought
of as
dangerous. Sure, firing howitzers "danger close", or working with
recruits on a
small arms range especially SMG C1s, or working a bay on a grenade
range may
require a heightened sense of awareness, but I never considered them
outright
dangerous. I trusted my training, and superiors, and peers, to do things
properly. Looking back, things I instructed my soldiers to do concerning
"safety" was more part of my job, and practical, than it was for
safety‘s sake.
Things like not sleeping under vehicles in the field, handling
ammunition
properly, refueling properly, using the buddy system, to watch for
frostbite.
Now, part of my civilian occupation involves being a "Safety Director"
at a
manufacturing facility. These types of operations never would have
appeared
dangerous to me. There are hundreds of hazards that exist in any
manufacturing
facility, maybe even thousands. Chemicals, forklifts, pinch points,
moving
equipment. Now I see the other side of the coin, and boy is it
different. In
addition the people don‘t have the rigorous training that we did in the
military, and boy do I see some careless, stupid, irresponsible stunts,
every
day. I have seen far more people injured in industrial settings, than I
did in
13 years in the Military. I guess, after my rambling, my point is this -
yes it
exists, in the civilian world, probably because, believe it or not, it
is needed
more. They, generally, have far more dangerous operations excluding
combat,
obviously, far less training, and more of a chance for having a
knucklehead as
a Supervisor. Like most of the others said, when the rare need does
exist,
hopefully, the unlawful order/redress/chain-of-command/training, etc.,
will
provide enough of a safety net no pun intended to make these incidents
few and
far between, and correctable, when they do occur.
Ubique
M J
MacFarlane
----- Original Message -----
From:
dave

To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20,
2000 4:35
PM
Subject: Re: Refusal to
Work

A soldier always had the option of
redressing any
situation, that was questionable. We were always taught to do
the job,
then complain afterwards. In the case of obvious safety
concerns, above
and beyond training and experience, that would be a hard call.
In the
case of a sapper in a minefield, they are trained for that, it is part
of our
bread and butter. As for a situation where one is electrocuted,
could it
even be forseen, if so then every safety measure needs to be
followed.
there will always be situations where accidents and incidents occur,
we can
only hope we are lead by competant and knowledgable leaders. we
have to
trust in them, but they are still only human.

chimo







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Kjnix63XNIMEJSlcyLChw4eCAgEAIfkEBMgA/wAsDAAIADIAFAAAB76AAYKDhIWGh4iJiouMjY6P
kJGKRJSUhUOYmJeZQ4SVlYqdAZ WRIKcmqKonaajQ58Booaao62ClrGsprS0t624p7Kbvp6tmpa8
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BczGb5s/ZNQGfmNGSJvCbgAHcRs4q DDfwkl tOYiN88cexkdbq3Tl8jk LUNVSp8ZyklzBjypxJ
c1AgACH5BAQeAP8ALAwACAAyABQAAAeVgAGCg4SFhoeIiYqLjI2Oj5CRikOUlIWVloSYQ5eYk4Kb
nJwBoaSgm6akqKOGmZmnsIOurKqxtp23s5qjr7W t7u5vLS6ssPBh8Wxvcq zLSXoKqepqXVqNfU
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AgEAOw=
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[army]

Posted by [email protected] on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 00:43:27 EDT
Mike,
You may have also picked up from your readings that the US military is being
criticized for putting too much emphasis on "zero casualties", with a
resultant lack of mission accomplishment. I‘m hearing from a number of
retired senior officers that we will be reverting back to the old
philosophy...Don‘t endanger the troops unnecessarily, but sometimes you are
going to lose people while taking the hill.
I‘d be interested in hearing your thoughts about that, as well as the rest of
the list members.
Dave Hall
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[army]

Posted by "Jay Digital" <[email protected]> on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 01:03:57 -0400
My feelings are that anyone joining a combat arms trade has accepted the
fact that they may die in the course of performing their duties. I think if
they hadn‘t accepted this possibility then they never would have joined. I
don‘t mean to say troops should be used as cannon fodder but I don‘t think
any army should shy away from a battle because they don‘t want to incur any
casualties at all. I applaud this move.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: Refusal to Work
> Mike,
> You may have also picked up from your readings that the US military is
being
> criticized for putting too much emphasis on "zero casualties", with a
> resultant lack of mission accomplishment. I‘m hearing from a number of
> retired senior officers that we will be reverting back to the old
> philosophy...Don‘t endanger the troops unnecessarily, but sometimes you
are
> going to lose people while taking the hill.
> I‘d be interested in hearing your thoughts about that, as well as the rest
of
> the list members.
> Dave Hall
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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[army]

Posted by [email protected] Mike Oleary on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 12:21:14 -0400
Dave, and Jay,
We have to be careful how we approach this question, and not confuse
operational risk which comes from doing our jobs as infantry, sappers,
etc. and risk which unnecessarily places troops in danger of avoidable
injury during non-combat tasks.
Selecting an tactical course of action solely to minimize casualties
eventually leads to the conclusion that inaction or surrender is the
only
course. ‘Reductio ad absurdum‘? Of course. Anyone who thinks that combat
operations can be conducted with a zero-casualty rate should find
another
line of work.
However, I think the crux of this discussion is not combat operations,
but
other operations, training and daily working conditions.
No supervisor, officer or NCO, can justify allowing dangerous working
conditions that can be identified and removed without affecting the
effectiveness of the ordered task. Like the high-voltage wire and the
sapper. Moving the wire was within the technical ability of the
organization, and the supervisors had the training and responsibility to
identify and remove the hazard. It‘s why we conduct training, and
refresh
skills, before we conduct potentially dangerous acts e.g., Tests of
Essential Training before weapons firing is risk assessment and
minimization. It‘s why we do periodic inspections of weapons, vehicles
and
workspaces. It‘s the point of any general safety program. Simply put,
it‘s
conservation of our MOST valuable resource, our troops.
Dave, I know what you mean about the Americans going a bit overboard.
While
I agree that the execution may need to be refined, it does not mean that
the
approach to the problem is flawed.
It if a fact that troops do get hurt in training. Some accidents have
attributable human causes, others do not. The chance that someone may
get
hurt is not sufficient reason to not train, or to create safeguards that
make the training worthless. But risk assessment is necessary is
everything
we do, and perhaps we need a more structured approach, or maybe just
better
training of our leaders at all levels of this factor and its attendant
responsibilities.
I‘ve had a fair bit of experience in ranges and live fire training,
specifically field firing. I‘ve always found that there is plenty of
safety
built into the manuals and have usually worked to the limits allowed by
the
system. I‘ve been on other ranges where adding additional safety
detracted
from the training value. And generally the range accidents I‘ve heard
about
occurred when someone decided they were going to ignore the manual. Risk
assessment can be taken too far, but when it is not done the results can
be
catastrophic.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Dave, and Jay,We have to be
careful how
we approach this question, and not confuseoperational risk which
comes from
doing our jobs as infantry, sappers,etc. and risk which
unnecessarily
places troops in danger of avoidableinjury during non-combat
tasks.Selecting an tactical course of action solely to minimize
casualtieseventually leads to the conclusion that inaction or
surrender is
the onlycourse. ‘Reductio ad absurdum‘? Of course. Anyone who thinks
that
combatoperations can be conducted with a zero-casualty rate should
find
anotherline of work.However, I think the crux of this
discussion is
not combat operations, butother operations, training and daily
working
conditions.No supervisor, officer or NCO, can justify allowing
dangerous
workingconditions that can be identified and removed without
affecting
theeffectiveness of the ordered task. Like the high-voltage wire and
thesapper. Moving the wire was within the technical ability of
theorganization, and the supervisors had the training and
responsibility
toidentify and remove the hazard. It‘s why we conduct training, and
refreshskills, before we conduct potentially dangerous acts e.g.,
Tests
ofEssential Training before weapons firing is risk assessment
andminimization. It‘s why we do periodic inspections of weapons,
vehicles
andworkspaces. It‘s the point of any general safety program. Simply
put,
it‘sconservation of our MOST valuable resource, our
troops.Dave, I
know what you mean about the Americans going a bit overboard. WhileI
agree
that the execution may need to be refined, it does not mean that
theapproach
to the problem is flawed.It if a fact that troops do get hurt in
training. Some accidents haveattributable human causes, others do
not. The
chance that someone may gethurt is not sufficient reason to not
train, or to
create safeguards thatmake the training worthless. But risk
assessment is
necessary is everythingwe do, and perhaps we need a more structured
approach, or maybe just bettertraining of our leaders at all
levels of
this factor and its attendantresponsibilities.I‘ve had a
fair bit of
experience in ranges and live fire training,specifically field
firing. I‘ve
always found that there is plenty of safetybuilt into the manuals
and have
usually worked to the limits allowed by thesystem. I‘ve been on
other ranges
where adding additional safety detractedfrom the training value. And
generally the range accidents I‘ve heard aboutoccurred when someone
decided
they were going to ignore the manual. Riskassessment can be taken
too far,
but when it is not done the results can
becatastrophic.MikeThe Regimental Rogue2001
Canadian
Military History Calendarhttp://regimentalrog
ue.tripod.com/index.htm
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <[email protected]> on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:49:59 -0700
Mike... kind of what I alluded to, in my earlier post... for things
typically considered hazardous, training and supervision all but
eliminated the hazards. Its the other stuff that can get you, and needs
a good dose of common sense
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Oleary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Refusal to work
Dave, and Jay,
We have to be careful how we approach this question, and not confuse
operational risk which comes from doing our jobs as infantry,
sappers,
etc. and risk which unnecessarily places troops in danger of
avoidable
injury during non-combat tasks.
Selecting an tactical course of action solely to minimize casualties
eventually leads to the conclusion that inaction or surrender is the
only
course. ‘Reductio ad absurdum‘? Of course. Anyone who thinks that
combat
operations can be conducted with a zero-casualty rate should find
another
line of work.
However, I think the crux of this discussion is not combat operations,
but
other operations, training and daily working conditions.
No supervisor, officer or NCO, can justify allowing dangerous working
conditions that can be identified and removed without affecting the
effectiveness of the ordered task. Like the high-voltage wire and the
sapper. Moving the wire was within the technical ability of the
organization, and the supervisors had the training and responsibility
to
identify and remove the hazard. It‘s why we conduct training, and
refresh
skills, before we conduct potentially dangerous acts e.g., Tests of
Essential Training before weapons firing is risk assessment and
minimization. It‘s why we do periodic inspections of weapons,
vehicles and
workspaces. It‘s the point of any general safety program. Simply put,
it‘s
conservation of our MOST valuable resource, our troops.
Dave, I know what you mean about the Americans going a bit overboard.
While
I agree that the execution may need to be refined, it does not mean
that the
approach to the problem is flawed.
It if a fact that troops do get hurt in training. Some accidents have
attributable human causes, others do not. The chance that someone may
get
hurt is not sufficient reason to not train, or to create safeguards
that
make the training worthless. But risk assessment is necessary is
everything
we do, and perhaps we need a more structured approach, or maybe just
better
training of our leaders at all levels of this factor and its
attendant
responsibilities.
I‘ve had a fair bit of experience in ranges and live fire training,
specifically field firing. I‘ve always found that there is plenty of
safety
built into the manuals and have usually worked to the limits allowed
by the
system. I‘ve been on other ranges where adding additional safety
detracted
from the training value. And generally the range accidents I‘ve heard
about
occurred when someone decided they were going to ignore the manual.
Risk
assessment can be taken too far, but when it is not done the results
can be
catastrophic.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Mike... kind of what I
alluded to,
in my earlier post... for things typically considered hazardous,
training and
supervision all but eliminated the hazards. Its the other stuff that can
get
you, and needs a good dose of common sense
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From:
Mike
Oleary
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 23,
2000 9:21
AM
Subject: Re: Refusal to
work

Dave, and Jay,We have to be
careful how
we approach this question, and not confuseoperational risk which
comes
from doing our jobs as infantry, sappers,etc. and risk which
unnecessarily places troops in danger of avoidableinjury during
non-combat
tasks.Selecting an tactical course of action solely to
minimize
casualtieseventually leads to the conclusion that inaction or
surrender
is the onlycourse. ‘Reductio ad absurdum‘? Of course. Anyone who
thinks
that combatoperations can be conducted with a zero-casualty rate
should
find anotherline of work.However, I think the crux of this
discussion is not combat operations, butother operations, training
and
daily working conditions.No supervisor, officer or NCO, can
justify
allowing dangerous workingconditions that can be identified and
removed
without affecting theeffectiveness of the ordered task. Like the
high-voltage wire and thesapper. Moving the wire was within the
technical
ability of theorganization, and the supervisors had the training
and
responsibility toidentify and remove the hazard. It‘s why we
conduct
training, and refreshskills, before we conduct potentially
dangerous acts
e.g., Tests ofEssential Training before weapons firing is risk
assessment
andminimization. It‘s why we do periodic inspections of weapons,
vehicles
andworkspaces. It‘s the point of any general safety program.
Simply put,
it‘sconservation of our MOST valuable resource, our
troops.Dave, I
know what you mean about the Americans going a bit overboard.
WhileI agree
that the execution may need to be refined, it does not mean that
theapproach to the problem is flawed.It if a fact that
troops do
get hurt in training. Some accidents haveattributable human
causes, others
do not. The chance that someone may gethurt is not sufficient
reason to
not train, or to create safeguards thatmake the training
worthless. But
risk assessment is necessary is everythingwe do, and perhaps we
need a
more structured approach, or maybe just bettertraining of our
leaders at
all levels of this factor and its
attendantresponsibilities.I‘ve
had a fair bit of experience in ranges and live fire
training,specifically
field firing. I‘ve always found that there is plenty of
safetybuilt into
the manuals and have usually worked to the limits allowed by
thesystem.
I‘ve been on other ranges where adding additional safety
detractedfrom the
training value. And generally the range accidents I‘ve heard
aboutoccurred
when someone decided they were going to ignore the manual.
Riskassessment
can be taken too far, but when it is not done the results can
becatastrophic.MikeThe Regimental
Rogue2001
Canadian Military History Calendarhttp://regimentalrog
ue.tripod.com/index.htm
--------------------------------------------------------
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to [email protected] from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.

 

[army]

Posted by "dave" <[email protected]> on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 11:46:44 -0700
By following carefully detailed safety procedures, range accidents are
rare, but certainly do still occur. In subsequent investigations, the
root cause is usually determined and action can be taken to prevent
reoccurance. what we have to remember is that most safety rules are
based on past incidents or accidents. The Military is a profession that
embraces dangerous taskings, but accomplishes them because of training
and dedication to the job. I agree, if you want a totally safe job, do
not join the forces, but understand that thwere are more dangers in the
normal workplace, because of percieved safety. I never thought live
explosives were safe, when you crawl through a mine field with 35 lbs of
C-4 in your pack, you pay attention to your training. The sapper 5
meters back has a pack full of det‘s, and he is paying attention too.
Maybe the accident rate is low, because we are so aware of the danger.
In any case, any accident is regretable, and it is only hoped that it is
not repeated.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
By following carefully detailed safety
procedures,
range accidents are rare, but certainly do still occur. In
subsequent
investigations, the root cause is usually determined and action can be
taken to
prevent reoccurance. what we have to remember is that most safety
rules
are based on past incidents or accidents. The Military is a
profession
that embraces dangerous taskings, but accomplishes them because of
training and
dedication to the job. I agree, if you want a totally safe job, do
not
join the forces, but understand that thwere are more dangers in the
normal
workplace, because of percieved safety. I never thought live
explosives
were safe, when you crawl through a mine field with 35 lbs of C-4 in
your pack,
you pay attention to your training. The sapper 5 meters back has a
pack
full of det‘s, and he is paying attention too. Maybe the accident
rate is
low, because we are so aware of the danger.
In any case, any accident is
regretable, and it is
only hoped that it is not repeated.
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[army]

Posted by [email protected] on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 15:04:13 EDT
Mike,
I‘m in complete agreement with your analysis. My tank brigade lost seven
soldiers to training accidents during one week-long field exercise in 1978.
Every loss was preventable. The key is knowing the difference between
realistic training and maintaining safe working conditions. Even in combat,
departure from safety rules leads to "friendly fire" casualties, or
accidental deaths. I think that the line btween operational risk and
occupational safety guidelines got blurred a bit much here, though. I have
seen it on the street in law enforcement, where officers won‘t even stop cars
for traffic violations because "there might be a bad guy driving it." Actual
quote from a now ex-patrol officer!
Dave
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[army]

Posted by "Steven R Clark" <[email protected]> on Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:12:57 -0400
So far, most of the talk on this topic has been opertional. Most of the talk
has been related to "hazardous" jobs, ie mine clearance, infantry and the
like.
What I would like to know, is if Joe vehicle tech says that those jack
stands are unsafe, and he will not put up that there LSVW on them to crawl
underneath to change that rusted out ole fuel tank....can he refuse to do
that job?
Can Joe welder refuse to work in that there welding shop because the exhast
system for the neighbouring paint shop vent out through the welding shop,
spewing paint fumes into yonder welding shop? Long term and short term
effects
Can Joe body man refuse to scrape, wire brush, sand, grind that yucky rusty
green paint off that there LSVW, because of the toxic effects of CARC paint?
Can Joe fcs tech refuse to solder those little wires together, because of
inadequate ventilation in the shop?
Can you tell I‘m a tech? I want to know, if a civilian working for the DND
can refuse a job, because he feels it is dangerous or would endanger his
health, can a military member refuse in the same way? We are talking peace
time, we are talking a tech on the floor, we are not dis-arming nuclear
warheads, nor are we shooting to kill Joe the Fantasian.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Refusal to work
> Mike,
> I‘m in complete agreement with your analysis. My tank brigade lost seven
> soldiers to training accidents during one week-long field exercise in
1978.
> Every loss was preventable. The key is knowing the difference between
> realistic training and maintaining safe working conditions. Even in
combat,
> departure from safety rules leads to "friendly fire" casualties, or
> accidental deaths. I think that the line btween operational risk and
> occupational safety guidelines got blurred a bit much here, though. I
have
> seen it on the street in law enforcement, where officers won‘t even stop
cars
> for traffic violations because "there might be a bad guy driving it."
Actual
> quote from a now ex-patrol officer!
> Dave
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to [email protected] from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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