Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP)-RMC 2000 - 2018 [Merged]

[jwtg]

. . .
I am continually surprised by individuals applying that do not want to go to RMC, with the reason being that 1.  They want to go to a "normal university without the uniforms and military stuff"  and 2. That they "don't want the hard core military while at university".    3.  They don't want to relocate and want to stay at home or with their friends.  If all of this really bothers you and it is that important, take a good hard look at if you really want this.   

So you're surprised that people want to go to Civ U for the 3 reasons (although 1 & 2 are basically the same) that you listed, or that people want to go to Civ U at all over RMC and often list those 3 reasons?

Either way, people are perfectly justified in having preferences no matter how valid they appear to others, and if they want it bad enough, they will accept the offer the receive even if it goes against their preferences. 

People shouldn't feel guilty for preferring Civ U because for all we know they may have very valid, important short-term reasons (<4 years) to stay home rather than go to RMC and are perfectly justified in not wanting to relocate, and preferring to stay at home.  I certainly had good reasons, but in the end I valued the career opportunity over my preferences and was able to balance my needs with those of the Forces and things at RMC are now going very well.

 

[The eternal learner]

Very Interesting

The perfect situation would be doing something you love while being close to love ones. I thought about it, 5 long years. I have a girl friend that loves me. I have a great family and friends. My situation can't be more perfect. I'm studying in a field with a 100% job placement with payed opportunities  to continue my education in engineering. But at the end I applied for ROTP. Why?
Because I know who I am and what I want. I am true to myself. I will even sacrifice a pleasant life, for an opportunity to be what I really want to be. To be an Officer in the Canadian Forces.
Going to Kingston for 4 years, OK, that's cool, you are still in Canada. Just wait when they send you oversees for a year, with only letters to keep in contact with love ones. Kingston, I see it as a good warm up for what will come next.

I understand what dcs is trying to say. You are limiting your chances by being reluctant to sacrifice a bit of comfort for a bit of hardship and uncertainty. If you are applying for ROTP, you are applying to serve after your studies as a commissioned member of the Canadian Forces. I hope you are ready to relocate and later maybe not even be present for the birth of your first child. Your family spending the holidays together while you are in god knows what hell hole on this planet, on a patrol where anything can happen. Sacrifice, not many people are ready for that. Not many know the meaning of it. A soldier sacrifices his time and even his life for his country.

I understand as well jwtg. Most candidates that apply for ROTP are young and have fairly little experience in life, many don't even know what's outside of there hometown, so it is normal to feel uneasy to lose that moral support  family and friends can bring. Most of them just need a push to see that it's not that bad and if they really want it, they will overcome any difficulty even miles away from home.  At the end, if they accept to go to Kingston, they will get that maturity during those 4 years and really have a first hand feel of what  military life is. It is a normal reaction to cling to familiarity than to the unknown. The CF will get them mature enough.

I, for one, am ready for this sacrifice. At first, I wanted to serve with the Van Doos (Valcartier) after Kingston because it's the closest regiment to Montreal. But now, even if they send me to a regiment located in the North Territories, I will go there and with no regrets. 

That's what I applied for, to serve. 

 

[jwtg]

I understand as well jwtg. Most candidates that apply for ROTP are young and have fairly little experience in life, many don't even know what's outside of there hometown, so it is normal to feel uneasy to lose that moral support  family and friends can bring. Most of them just need a push to see that it's not that bad and if they really want it, they will overcome any difficulty even miles away from home.  At the end, if they accept to go to Kingston, they will get that maturity during those 4 years and really have a first hand feel of what  military life is. It is a normal reaction to cling to familiarity than to the unknown. The CF will get them mature enough.

My point was this: I interpreted dcs as saying that they were confused by people applying to Civ U vice RMC for seemingly shallow reasons.  I contend that the reasons are not always shallow, that some of us have very legitimate reasons to prefer Civ U over RMC and there is nothing confusing or inferior about that.  Perhaps ROTP applicants have a sick family member with ~1 yr to live, or perhaps they are married, or close to being married, or own a home, or any other of a million reasons why it may be preferable to stay where they are for a few years.
When they receive an offer, they choose whether the sacrifice being asked of them (which, as you have said, will continue to be asked throughout the remainder of their career) is a price worth paying.  For many, such as myself, our reasons for preferring a place were perfectly valid and easy to understand, but when it came down to it, I found a way to balance my very real needs and priorities with service in the CF.

Having a preference is neither confusing nor indicative of a lack of commitment- it is simply that: a preference.  You're entitled to it, while being aware that the CF may not be able or willing to accommodate it, and then at that point you make a choice.

For the sake of clarity, I was not implying that people are uneasy about losing their home base or nervous about leaving.  I'm just making the case that preferences can be perfectly valid, and with the lack of information we receive on an internet forum, we're hardly qualified to categorize someone else's preferences as reasonable or not.

Also, my entire position is based on my own interpretation of dcs' language, and not necessarily their intended message.

 

[Cui]

As well, people who have already began their studies at a civilian university may want to stay there. I have already moved away from home to attend higher education, and I have been away from home for a few summers already, so being far from home is not an issue for me. However, I put down my preference for civilian university because I would like to graduate as soon as possible, and be occupationally qualified. Now I would not mind if I get sent to RMC to start over again, but it would just take longer for me to graduate, and would probably cost more money for the CF.

I'm sure a lot of us already at civilian universities feel the same way. Not everyone who puts civilian university down as their preference is trying to get out of doing military things at RMC. A lot of us are just trying to get our degrees as quickly as possible, so we can become effective members of the CF as soon as we can.

 

[LOLslamball]

I wrote a response to dcs's post.  Its just my opinion and what I have been told from my RC.  Also I don't mean for it to come off rude, or arrogant at all, I've been working on arguing a stronger viewpoint for my classes, so it may be reflected here, but it is not personal in any way and feel free to disagree or tear down my viewpoint if you believe it to be wrong.

If you come up for your third choice first and are deemed acceptable, an offer may be made.  They will not it certainly appears review if you would later also come up for one of the others.  I am not sure what turning it down on the hope of getting one of the others is.  I can't see it being viewed very positively as you indicated you wanted a military career and listed and now don't want.

Everything I have been told from my RC is that there is one board, ie there is not separate boards for each trade, therefore the only way a applicant would be offered their second or third trade is if they did not qualify for their first one.  (I've heard second and third are somewhat interchangeable, but first definitely takes priority)  Then again I could be wrong as well.

He was told that the selection process would start fairly soon following, perhaps the next week or the week of the 25th.  Those files selected initially go to RMC for their review and acceptance and/or recommendation for civi university.  I am sure that they have their own basis of selection for Kingston/St Jean but certainly leadership and military potential is high if not the highest. Advised " not to anticipate anyone being advised until around April 15th or later".  "Offers will be made over quite a while and into the summer".  (His brother did not receive until late July or early August)    A decision will be made as to the location being offered, or where they want you.  If you indicated civi  U there still is a very good chance the offer will be RMC and if RMC that Civi U.  About 50% of the first year RMC students (and all the CEGEP for Quebec) go to St Jean.

This has been a pretty big topic lately.  If you ask your RC they can tell you if you are suitable or unsuitable for RMC.  If you selected "no" for RMC, you may still be "suitable." I do not know if it was because of the amount of university I have completed, age, community involvement, or perhaps my essay about continuing to attend my first choice of school was just too compelling (joking) but I was deemed "unsuitable" for RMC, so I could not be offered a position other than civy-u (so I was told from my MCC) 

While they will look at you application in regards to why you do or do not want to go to RMC, they will put you where they want you to be.  I am continually surprised by individuals applying that do not want to go to RMC, with the reason being that 1.  They want to go to a "normal university without the uniforms and military stuff"  and 2. That they "don't want the hard core military while at university".    3.  They don't want to relocate and want to stay at home or with their friends.  If all of this really bothers you and it is that important, take a good hard look at if you really want this.    You are going to be hard-core military, move around at various placements a lot, and have summer military training each year at school.  It you don't like it and enjoy it and your trade give it a lot of thought.

RMC is not the be all and end all of a military career, I've read a few threads and heard personal experiences of RMC.  Some people love it and some hate it.  I've been told (and am experiencing now) that the level of independence and organization while attending civy-u is  high.  There are documents and paperwork to send back and fourth to your ULO, every receipt to file and organize, and nobody telling you to do it.  Without constant organization it would be easy to let a form sit around for a few weeks before it is sent back, or forget to make a phone call.
Because I am attending civy-u will that make me less of an Officer in the future? Will it make me a better Officer? the answer to both are probably no.  A lot can be learned from taking either path.


A final comment.  How many students at your high school received a FULL scholarship for four years of university??  This includes all fees, residence, books etc.  And.... received a salary while doing so and summer employment.  And... have a job at the end of it and further training???  If there is more than perhaps one or two I'd be very surprise... and most likely none other than perhaps you.  That they want what they deem "the best" should not  be a surprise. 

I agree completely, except I don't know if I have heard of another scholarship that will actually pay a salary during school

While someone that is not excluded for any reason ( minimum marks,  medical,  CFAT, interview etc) will it appears be merit listed, they are not strong candidates and in this competition will most likely not be selected.

I disagree with this, they will only merit list people that have a chance of getting in.  At first I was found "suitable but not competitive for Pilot" this was after my interview, medical and CFAT, but before ASC.  They obviously did not put me on the merit list with little chance of getting in, hence the "not competitive part" I have all the traits of a Pilot, but not a high enough score this year.  I was later offered an opportunity to be put on the merit list for a new Pilot program, so its not like I was that far off.  Also my CFAT, medical and interview (the first part of my interview carried over, just updated for the new trade) were all good enough to land me an offer that was available from last year for AEC.  So actually getting on the merit list is an achievement and while it does not guarantee anybody a job (obviously) it does say that you are a competitive applicant, not simply that you didn't fail anything.

Those hat have applied sit back and relax. You will not hear anything for a couple of weeks at least and it is out of your hands now.
totally agree

 

[The eternal learner]

Very nice points Lolslamball, jwtg and Cui

I agree with your points of views, but to some extent. I might be stepping on a delicate subject, but I am entitled to my opinion as well. I am not here to be popular but honest.

There are some things that the army might ask of an individual that might seem unreasonable, unfair or just down straight incomprehensible. But there is always a reason, and the most important one is to follow orders and have faith in your superiors. To achieve this, your preference is not their concern. What concerns them is how you are going to perform in your duties later on in your career. You might have your reasons for not wanting to attend RMC through ROTP but a preference is a choice and there are always reasons for a choice. Some choices might be understandable (program choice for example), but if it's for personal reasons, you are already starting on the wrong foot. Better take your time and reevaluate your choices.

It might sound harsh what I will say, but your personal life and the problems that come with it is your concern alone, not the CF. They pay you to do a job and that job is to serve, what ever the reasons may be. You will serve, with a smile on your face, even if you know that at home hell is braking loose. How do I know this? my mentor, a Captain, went through this, and he almost lost his job for that same reason. They don't joke around with morale. You are an Officer, an example, you are responsible for the needs, the well being, the training, and the morale of your subordinates. Your mind has to be on the task at hand, not on personal problems. That is why you separate your personal life from your professional life. To do that you must be mentally strong which is one of the qualities of an Officer.  The hardest thing that I will have to face is to be away from my soul mate. Just imagine that I put my preference for the only reason to stay close to her. When will I be ready to handle this separation? when I am commissioned? is it going to make it easier? How will I know I will be able to cope ? For ROTP, RMC is the best way to find out. If you don't want to leave your love ones behind just yet for what ever reason, go to a CivU. get your degree and if you feel that you still want to serve, apply for the Officer direct entry program.

Now what is the relation between what I just said and ROTP. When you get drafted for ROTP, this is not only an acceptance to a university, it's a job offer. A job. that is right, you are starting your military career as of that day. If you are already concerned about your personal problems, and reluctant to follow their demands for what ever reason, how will you cope later on. Better settle every thing in your life first. Because they won't waste time waiting on you to settle things, they have priorities and like I said, your personal problems are not their concern.

Again a word to the wise, do not mix your personal life with your professional life. You won't last.

Anyways, the CF are not stupid, they screen applicants from the start, with the job offer. If he refuses, it shows that he is not ready and it ends there.

Again this my opinion, I am not judging anyone. There are millions of reasons for ones choices and preferences. At the end what matters is how you perform in your duties, RMC or CivU.

Thank you for this exchange of ideas and thoughts, it makes the wait much more bearable  ;D, and to retrospect on some choices for why I chose this path in my life.

 

[LOLslamball]

That is a well written post, and I completely agree with what you say.

I don't have any counterpoints or disagreements with anything you have said.

 

[jwtg]

You might have your reasons for not wanting to attend RMC through ROTP but a preference is a choice and there are always reasons for a choice. Some choices might be understandable (program choice for example), but if it's for personal reasons, you are already starting on the wrong foot. Better take your time and reevaluate your choices.

This is simply not accurate.  You are perfectly entitled to personal reasons for your preferences.  Bearing in mind that the CF may or may not be willing or able to accommodate your 'personal reasons' is important, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with having them or having preferences.  You simply have to be prepared to do what you're told and that it may not be in line with your personal interests.

Going to RMC vice Civ U is not like deploying to Afghanistan- it is not a theater of operations, and it is 4 years long as opposed to 6-9 months.  Personal reasons can (and often should) weigh very heavily on someone's mind when they're considering whether or not they want to go to RMC and Civ U.

With your logic, a person who is 30 and has been married for 5 years is somehow starting on the wrong foot because they want to go to a civilian university so they can live with their spouse for the next four years of their life.  That is absolutely not an invalid desire and makes a very compelling reason to pick Civ U over RMC.  It is a perfectly valid 'personal reason.' 

It might sound harsh what I will say, but your personal life and the problems that come with it is your concern alone, not the CF.

I have to strongly disagree here.  The CF certainly requires its members to leave their business at the door and perform at a high level despite the many life-stresses they experience, including those brought on by military lifestyle; however, your assertion that the CF is not concerned with your personal problems is incorrect.  There are an incredible amount of resources in place by the CF to help you deal with your personal problems: Military Family Resource Centers, Padres (chaplains), Peer Assistance Group right here at RMC, help lines, etc.  The CF offers programs to help its members deal with personal problems because happy soldiers are better soldiers.  Heck, there is even an entire trade devoted to helping members- Social Work Officers.  The CF has a very real interest in promoting the well-being of its members and helping them take care of their personal lives.  They even pay separation allowance when you are required to be separated from your spouse.


Summary: You're allowed to have preferences and there is NOTHING wrong with that, but you need to realize that the CF may or may not be the right fit, depending on the limitations imposed by those preferences.  You must choose whether or not the price is one you are willing to pay.

EDIT: fixed you're/your

 

[matthew1786]

The last few posts were quite insightful, definitely a good read for anyone looking to join the forces. I'm not going to side with anyone though, I'm just here to say...

Enjoy the long weekend everyone, I get the feeling that next week will be the week! Cheers.

 

[Cui]

The last few posts were quite insightful, definitely a good read for anyone looking to join the forces. I'm not going to side with anyone though, I'm just here to say...

Enjoy the long weekend everyone, I get the feeling that next week will be the week! Cheers.

Good call, I think this anticipation is the reason why some people are a bit edgy lately, me included.  :-\

Though I feel THE week will probably be the week after...

 

[matt1994]

The last few posts were quite insightful, definitely a good read for anyone looking to join the forces. I'm not going to side with anyone though, I'm just here to say...

Enjoy the long weekend everyone, I get the feeling that next week will be the week! Cheers.

I hope next week will be the one! I kind of have that feeling too!

 

[The eternal learner]

Mister jwtg, I would have shaken your hand, invited you to a coffee and asked you to continue this debate so that I can learn more from this great exchange of ideas. You seem like someone that knows where his values and principles stand and you do not hesitate to defend them. I must applaud that.

If I may, for the sake of debate :

Going to RMC vice Civ U is not like deploying to Afghanistan- it is not a theater of operations, and it is 4 years long as opposed to 6-9 months.  Personal reasons can (and often should) weigh very heavily on someone's mind when they're considering whether or not they want to go to RMC and Civ U.

It might be 4 years, but if the individual is uneasy to move inside Canada, how will it be easier to  leave Canada, and for  Afghanistan? even if it's 6-9 months, it's still 6-9 months of delicate operations with high levels of stress, lack of comfort, in a foreign war stricken country where death is around the corner. You might say that when they are deployed they are trained for this sort of situation. But fresh Officers have no experiences in campaigns yet, this weighs a lot on the minds of their men  that count on a strong leadership to survive. I hope that your personal reasons are taken care of in your mind before your boots hit afghan soil for their sake and yours. It's harsh but it's reality.

With your logic, a person who is 30 and has been married for 5 years is somehow starting on the wrong foot because they want to go to a civilian university so they can live with their spouse for the next four years of their life.  That is absolutely not an invalid desire and makes a very compelling reason to pick Civ U over RMC.  It is a perfectly valid 'personal reason.'

My point was not stating that someone that wants to join the army with a life of personal accomplishment is starting on the wrong foot for wanting to join CiV U. If you are favoring Civ U over RMC for 4 more years with your spouse, enrolling in the ROTP program is not wise. Better attend a Civ U, finish your degree and then apply for the direct entry plan. 4 years is a lot of time to reflect on choices.  I am 31 years old and have been with my love for 3 wonderful years. And she understands the sacrifice that I'm about to do, 4 years away from her embrace. Better start getting used to it as soon as possible. It won't get any easier, on me nor on her. But I understand your point, if you had a choice to do what you love close to who you love, even if there was a slim chance of happening, you would still take it. And no one can blame you to be true to yourself.

I have to strongly disagree here.  The CF certainly requires its members to leave their business at the door and perform at a high level despite the many life-stresses they experience, including those brought on by military lifestyle; however, your assertion that the CF is not concerned with your personal problems is incorrect.  There are an incredible amount of resources in place by the CF to help you deal with your personal problems: Military Family Resource Centers, Padres (chaplains), Peer Assistance Group right here at RMC, help lines, etc.  The CF offers programs to help its members deal with personal problems because happy soldiers are better soldiers.  Heck, there is even an entire trade devoted to helping members- Social Work Officers.  The CF has a very real interest in promoting the well-being of its members and helping them take care of their personal lives.  They even pay separation allowance when you are required to be separated from your spouse.

That might be, but believe me, you will be followed very closely under a magnifying glass. Like I said and it is written on the CF website. And I quote : "Officer's... morale are closely monitored". And they won't hesitate to remind you where are your priorities. This isn't a depression rehab center, it's the army. They give you tools to overcome your troubles, but it's in your hands to settle them fast. They have engagements that have to be met. They won't wait after you.  They need strong individuals, not individuals that might crack at any moment. What they do is prevention, not solve your problems. Their concern is not your problems, but how your problems are affecting your performance. A social work Officer is first a soldier, then a social worker, and what comes first is the CF. Never forget that. The medical Officer that did my medical, when I was changing into my shorts behind the curtain asked me questions about how I felt about my country of origin and if I still had ties. Wow?? I have been to Lebanon twice for a week period in 28 years, I've been living in Canada since the age of 2. Those questions had nothing to do with the medical evaluation, but had to do with his duties, he is a soldier first, then a doctor. Lesson learned.

Summary: You're allowed to have preferences and there is NOTHING wrong with that, but you need to realize that the CF may or may not be the right fit, depending on the limitations imposed by those preferences.  You must choose whether or not the price is one you are willing to pay.

I agree a 100% with this.

In all, from the information that I got from CFRC Montreal, ROTP works like this ( there are exceptions but rarely)

RMC will be chosen over any Civ U
you can put your preference of Civ U, but there is a slim chance that you might go to a Civ U if selected.
The candidates that attend Civ U through ROTP are candidates that applied for a program that is not given at RMC or RMC has no more room and still needs to fill in spots.

So at the end, your choice is not in your hands but in the CF.

Feel free to comment

 

[migperreault]

The eternal learner, do you know what programs at RMC are the fullest and what programs are in demand? I'm applying for construction engineering officer this year

 

[jwtg]

The eternal learner, do you know what programs at RMC are the fullest and what programs are in demand? I'm applying for construction engineering officer this year

Construction Engineering Officer is not a program at RMC, it's an occupation/trade/MOC/MOSID in the CF.  Only the registrars know what the numbers are for next years enrollment in the engineering department and its various programs that qualify for your trade, and only those involved with selecting candidates this year would be able to tell you how many Construction Engineering Officer spots there are in this years intake.

 

[The eternal learner]

The eternal learner, do you know what programs at RMC are the fullest and what programs are in demand? I'm applying for construction engineering officer this year

As I see it on the CF website, the trade "construction engineering officer" is still in demand.
As for the programs at RMC, your guess is as good as mine. I have no idea.

Now I know that you are uncertain and concerned about what is going to happen next. Just relax, you did all what you can do for now, you are merit listed and now it's out of your hands. Even if you knew which programs and trades where still in demand, it's too late anyways, unless you want to serve so badly that you are willing to take any trade that is in demand. Not a wise choice in my mind, but to each his own.
Hope for the best, have confidence in your choices and in yourself, and all will go smooth.

Go run a good 10k, get a "runners high", running releases endorphins which help ease stress. Now you know why soldiers need and like to run.

 

[matt1994]

Not to get ahead of myself, but:

If we get accepted we do a 2 week course this summer, and then BMOQ the next summer, correct?

 

[Chalupas]

It's my understanding you do the 2 week orientation and then FYOP if you are going to RMC and the following summer is BMOQ for all ROTP candidates

 

[Cui]

It's my understanding you do the 2 week orientation and then FYOP if you are going to RMC and the following summer is BMOQ for all ROTP candidates

As well, if you get chosen for civilian university, you will have to do a longer BMOQ than RMC students. It's to make up for the 4 weeks of FYOP that RMC students got.

 

[MKos]

As well, if you get chosen for civilian university, you will have to do a longer BMOQ than RMC students. It's to make up for the 4 weeks of FYOP that RMC students got.

Does anybody know when it starts? As in like First week of July after I'm out of High School?

 

[Chalupas]

I'm pretty sure it's mid-August , the two weeks before september starts which is the beginning of FYOP