Remembering Dieppe

[rlh]

Seeing news reports about ceremonies commemorating the anniversary of the Dieppe Raid made me wonder the following:

It's natural that veterans who were in the Second World War remember, and that students of military history note the date, but how much do everyday people think about such anniversaries?  Does the Canadian Forces do a good job in marking these historical milestones?  And how should we be preserving and remembering the history that is being made today by serving members? 

 

[Greymatters]

Uuh... Remembrance Day?

 

[rlh]

Remembering generally on 11 November is a bit different than remembering specific anniversary dates.  One has to be knowledgable of history to be aware of specific dates.  When one focuses on the a date such as the Dieppe Raid, one is going to learn some of the history of that event and perhaps even try to grapple with  making sense of what happened (i.e.  gleaning what lessons can be learned and applied to today, devising some way of not letting the sacrifices, pain, and loss of life be a waste).

11 November is a very important date, but it is easy to remember "generally" on one day when all the calendars and media keep the upcoming event in the forefront of one's mind.  It's kind of like 14 February vs birthdays/anniversaries.  Mass marketing won't let anyone forget Valentine's Day -- and all of us like being acknowledged on such a day.  Nevertheless, having one's birthday or other special dates remembered takes a bit more effort and more intimate knowledge of specific events.

 

[Greymatters]

I would not group Valentine's day (a marketing and social day) in with Remembrance Day (a military and national holiday).

 

[rlh]

Absolutely, a crass-commercialism day is not on the same level as a reverent national holiday.  But I was making the comparison to illustrate that more knowledge is acquired/required when one moves past the generic to the specific.

Maybe it's because of my historian's training, but I just feel that a lot can be learned by paying increased attention to milestone events:  knowlege of our history is gained, lessons learned for today can be gleaned, and specific past sacrifices are not forgotten.

 

[FascistLibertarian]

And how should we be preserving and remembering the history that is being made today by serving members? 

Dieppe was one of the best documented battles ever in human history (let alone Canadian history). Not just bc of Stacey but the manner in which he investigated and broke down the battle def set the mold. Its hard to say what more could be done on Dieppe and most later historians have either copied him OR gone the conspiracy theory route.
By having every returning Canadian fill out a report on exactly what they had witnessed we were able to get a very good picture of what happened.
Of course some aspects (blue beach, the tanks) were not well documented until after the war because everyone got captured.
These days the CF doesn't have big set piece battles like Dieppe.
Being a civ I dont know how many historians we have in theatre and what the SOP is for soldiers returning from combat. This is a different kind of war, I will be very intrested to see how the unit histories and the official histories are.

If you go to Dieppe there are a bunch of monuments, plaques, Canadian flags.

I sometimes think the French remember our contribution more than Canada does.......

 

[geo]

rlh,
question for you... Should it be the military's responsability to promote these anniversaries? educate the population on the country's history?

Most units that were involved in Dieppe hold a memorial service on that day.
I have been to a number of Fusilier Mont-Royal memorial services over the years
For the most part, it's a local thing - not much media coverage... though the PROs do release a communiqué

I know that the Royal Newfoundland Regiment (and the whole province) marks Beaumont Hamel day - when the Reg't was pert much wiped out in a half hour of battle.  This a is provincialy driven event in which the military participates.

 

[geo]

If you go to Dieppe there are a bunch of monuments, plaques, Canadian flags.

I sometimes think the French remember our contribution more than Canada does.......

FL,
you have to remember that Canada, with it's "world's longest undefended border" has not seen a shot fired in anger (excl 1970 & FLQ) since the war of 1812.  It's hard to remember a sacrifice when you haven't suffered the pain that goes along with it.

 

[je suis prest]

At the risk of taking this slightly off topic, there have, actually, been quite a few shots fired in anger in Canada since the war of 1812, including the rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada, and the associated American freebooter invasions, the Fenian Raids, the North West Rebellion and, almost entirely forgotten, the various "police" actions by the Royal Navy on the Pacific Coast which continued into the 1860s (along with the conflicts in that period among various First Nations themselves which lasted at least until that period). 

Who should take the lead in commemorating such events is another question. Certainly there is benefit to the armed forces in doing so, if only to further increase public profile, and help in its recruiting efforts.  Probably the lead in such commemorations should be the Department of Heritage,  which could coordinate efforts among the armed forces, veterans groups, historical societies, etc.

Certainly one would hope that, as the bicentennial of the War of 1812 approaches, someone, somewhere, is thinking of how to commemorate events such as Lundy's Lane and Queenston Heights.

 

[geo]

At the risk of taking this slightly off topic, there have, actually, been quite a few shots fired in anger in Canada since the war of 1812, including the rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada, and the associated American freebooter invasions, the Fenian Raids, the North West Rebellion and, almost entirely forgotten, the various "police" actions by the Royal Navy on the Pacific Coast which continued into the 1860s (along with the conflicts in that period among various First Nations themselves which lasted at least until that period). 

Whups, you are correct.  I should have specified that the shots fired in anger I was talking about were mostly related with invasions of all sorts.  I made mention of the 1970s FLQ thing & threw out my argument in the bargain - my bad

Who should take the lead in commemorating such events is another question. Certainly there is benefit to the armed forces in doing so, if only to further increase public profile, and help in its recruiting efforts. 

Probably the lead in such commemorations should be the Department of Heritage,  which could coordinate efforts among the armed forces, veterans groups, historical societies, etc.

Heritage Canada is not part of the CF.  The CF have plenty on their hands & while it might be a nice thing to participate in memorials of all sorts, I don't see them taking the lead on this subject

Certainly one would hope that, as the bicentennial of the War of 1812 approaches, someone, somewhere, is thinking of how to commemorate events such as Lundy's Lane and Queenston Heights.

Don't forget Chrysler Farm & Chateauguay

 

[FascistLibertarian]

It's hard to remember a sacrifice when you haven't suffered the pain that goes along with it.

Yeah its true. I mean I havent suffered but seeing blue beach esp as well as the Dieppe cem and the 2 other big ones really makes you think.....
to see 2000 or 3000 Canadians myself who died in a far away country in the prime of their youth. 
It would be far too expensive to let every Canadian see that though

 

[rlh]

Should it be the military's responsability to promote these anniversaries? educate the population on the country's history?

This is a very good question -- who should be responsible for promoting anniversaries.  Let me ramble a bit and hopefully end up with something coherent.

I agree that the military does not have the time or the money to be taking the responsibility of promoting its history for the general public.  But I think it is very important for the CF to promote its history among its own members and to pursue learning lessons from history and applying it today's military.

Who should be responsible for educating the public at large?  The media has the greatest multi-media reach.  In my experience, though, journalists in general are focusing too much on "getting a scoop" or "telling a juicy story" or "producing something quickly" -- consequently, the research is poor, the facts are wrong, the context is missing, or too much artistic license has turned the work more into fiction.  (I won't name names or titles....)

I put more trust into the research done by professional historians who have been trained in a culture where research takes time, context, primary sources, contrary arguments....where the sources are supposed to tell the story, not some preconceived idea.  But have you read an academic book lately?  Probably not because academic writing is so often dry, full of jargon, technical, or about some obscure topic that only a handful of academics could care about.  Furthermore, there is a reluctance in the academic community to write "popular history" that is accessible to everyday people and meant for public consumption.

Sigh!  So who is left?  Historians need to get out of the ivory tower and more active in the community!  Hey, if you are not doing history for every people to be able to get a better appreciation of being a Canadian citizen, then ultimately, what's the point ?  (getting published in some obscure journal with a circulation of 15?)  Journalists need to be more diligent about good research and bringing historians on board as advisers.  And the military should also make a point of bringing special dates to the media's attention -- so that it's brought to the attention of the average citizen.

Ultimately, I think that Canadian citizens in general should take more interest in Canadian military history.  We all should want to know more about country's past.  We shouldn't expect to have to be spoon-fed through TV.  And there should be more history (and military history) taught in school so that these milestone dates already have meaning and so more people take the initiative in commemerating these events.

OK, that was more a rant than a ramble!

 

[1feral1]

Is not Dieppe and Vimy etc covered in modern history in Canadian highschools? It was in my day, and I was the class of 77.

On the 19th, I had two thoughts on my mind, that was Dieppe ( particularly Puys), and Long Tan. So what is Long Tan??

Google it and you'll hear of something you have never heard of before, yet is a important part of modern Australian military history.

Back about 20 yrs ago. I was in Regina, seen a car with the Sask lic plate 'RSM SSR'. He and his wife had entered a shopping centre car park. I parked beside him, and commented on his lic plate. We spoke for only a few minutes. He was old and frail then. He had said he did not participate in Dieppe, but was in after D-Day with the SSR (Weyburn's South Sask Regt for those that don't know) through to the end.

I have a couple of books on Dieppe. One simply called 'Dieppe-Dieppe' by Art Global . These books seemed to appear on the 40th adn 50th anniversary of the battle. Another good read is Green Beach by James Leasor.


Regards,

Wes

 

[rlh]

Canadian history in my public schooling experience was not all that great or that engaging.  Grade 6 was about the natives and the explorers.  Important stuff and kind of fun.  Then Grade 7 was about the natives and the explorers -- using the same textbook as that used in Grade 6.  Ok, that was disappointing -- maybe next year.....  And then Grade 8 was AGAIN about the natives and the explorers -- using the SAME texbook as Grade 6 AND 7.  By the time I left elementary school, I absolutely HATED  :rage: Canadian history.  After having the same material taught for three years in a row, I firmly believed that Canadian history was boring.

In high school, one Canadian history course was mandatory to graduate, and it was taught in Grade 9.  It was mostly about how the Canadian political system work.  :boring:  FINALLY, the last two units were about the First and Second World Wars, so I enjoyed that part.  But then, there were no Canadian history courses offered for the remaining years of high school.  Not that I would have taken them anyway because I was still scarred from the tree-peat curriculum of elementary school.

When I did my history degree at undergrad, I still avoided Canadian history.  Finally, in fourth year, I took my first and only Canadian history course for my BA (I was embarressed into it -- a prof asked how I could be writing a Canadian history (military topic!) thesis and not have taken any Canadian history courses?)  Well, the course dispelled the myth that I had been carrying from my experience since Grade 6, 7, and 8.  Much to my surprise, I enjoyed the course and discovered that Canada had a interesting past!   I ended up doing an MA and PhD in Canadian history, as well as being a teaching assistant for a first year introduction to Canadian history course, and then an instructor for a college's online Canadian history course.

All of that was to say:
1:  Canadian history was very poorly taught in elementary and high school; military history was virtually non-existent;
2:  Any impression that Canadian history is boring is a misconception; there is something neat for everybody.

I still don't think that much military history (let alone Canadian history) is being taught in high schools today.  The students coming into history programs at university were not only obviously deficient in anyhistorical knowledge, but they also admitted that little was taught and that what was was very boring.

I am very envious of those students who talk about that unforgetable and awesome high school teacher that just magically made history come alive! 

 

[FascistLibertarian]

Hey, if you are not doing history for every people to be able to get a better appreciation of being a Canadian citizen, then ultimately, what's the point ? 

thats why terry copp is my fav canadian historian
that guy has done so much

 

[rlh]

i think there would be more public interest in getting to know our military history if there was a culture (change) where members of the military were looked up to as heroes instead of pop musicians, movie stars, and sports figures.  It takes a lot more talent, ability, and sacrifice to dedicate one's life to serving the country than it takes to "entertain" (or make headlines by making a fool of oneself!)  We should be wanting this country's children to look up to CF members as models and heroes and true examples of admirable citizenship.

 

[geo]

rlh,
you're preaching to the convinced....
Every ordinary citzen has a little bit of hero in him.
The trick is to bring it out

 

[Avary]

A video to remember Dieppe : http://youtube.com/watch?v=dMwunLwmu50 

It truly is saddening that in my home province the memory of the Dieppe Raid has fallen prey to urban legends if not outright oblivion. Either people are entirely unawares of this tragic day in the most challenging days of world war two, or they have had their perception distorted by propaganda into a "the maudits anglais send the Québécois to die as cannon fodder BWAAAAAAAAHHHH!" hysteria.

And to think the provincial motto is "Je me souviens". It's a crying shame.  :-[

PS. This is my first post. Please be indulgent.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

A video to remember Dieppe : http://youtube.com/watch?v=dMwunLwmu50 

It truly is saddening that in my home province the memory of the Dieppe Raid has fallen prey to urban legends if not outright oblivion. Either people are entirely unawares of this tragic day in the most challenging days of world war two, or they have had their perception distorted by propaganda into a "the maudits anglais send the Québécois to die as cannon fodder BWAAAAAAAAHHHH!" hysteria.

And to think the provincial motto is "Je me souviens". It's a crying shame.  :-[

PS. This is my first post. Please be indulgent.

Nice video...thanks. Here's a link to the Chaplain Branch contribution on that day. A Chaplain named John Weir Foote won a VC for his valour on the beach that day.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/citations/foote

Citation
'At Dieppe on 19th August 1942, Honourary Captain Foote, Canadian Chaplain Services, was Regimental Chaplain with the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry.

Upon landing on the beach under heavy fire he attached himself to the Regimental Aid Post which had been set up in a slight depression on the beach, but which was only sufficient to give cover to men lying down. During the subsequent period of approximately eight hours, while the action continued, this officer not only assisted the Regimental Medical Officer in ministering to the wounded in the Regimental Aid Post, but time and again left this shelter to inject morphine, give first-aid and carry wounded personnel from the open beach to the Regimental Aid Post. On these occasions, with utter disregard for his personal safety, Honourary Captain Foote exposed himself to an inferno of fire and saved many lives by his gallant efforts. During the action, as the tide went out, the Regimental Aid Post was moved to the shelter of a stranded landing craft. Honourary Captain Foote continued tirelessly and courageously to carry wounded men from the exposed beach to the cover of the landing craft. He also removed wounded from inside the landing craft when ammunition had been set on fire by enemy shells. When landing craft appeared he carried wounded from the Regimental Aid Post to the landing craft through heavy fire. On several occasions this officer had the opportunity to embark but returned to the beach as his chief concern was the care and evacuation of the wounded. He refused a final opportunity to leave the shore, choosing to suffer the fate of the men he had ministered to for over three years.

Honourary Captain Foote personally saved many lives by his efforts and his example inspired all around him. Those who observed him state that the calmness of this heroic officer as he walked about, collecting the wounded on the fire-swept beach will never be forgotten."

 

[rlh]

rlh,
you're preaching to the convinced....

I know!  My question is how do we get this message out to the "unwashed public"?  How do we reach the kids in school?  Where does one start in trying to create a culture where what CF members do and sacrifice constitute real heroes and real models with the next generation?  How did the sports, movie, and entertainment world create itself as the monolith to mindlessly worship?