Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)

[Nfld Sapper]

I would really hope this is not the case.  In my 23 year period of military employment, Remembrance Day is the one parade I never heard anyone complain about.

Might have something to do with all the wobbley pops after......

 

[Kung Fu Sifu]

This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.

 

[mariomike]

This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.

I think it used to be something like that for about ten years:
"From 1921 to 1930, the Armistice Day Act provided that Thanksgiving would be observed on Armistice Day, which was fixed by statute on the Monday of the week in which November 11 fell.":
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/jfa-ha/action-eng.cfm

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on this.

I am one of those who hopes that Canadians will remember our war dead – and let me be very, very clear: that, remembering our dead in wars, is the one and only, sole and complete purpose of Remembrance Day. It is not about war, per se, or about veterans or children or priests and rabbis and assorted other shamans. The complete ceremony takes two minutes and a few seconds: the recitation of the Act of Remembrance and a couple of trumpet calls and a lament a brief period of silence – everything else is window dressing, stuff about the living, not the dead.

Suppose we make Remembrance Day a statutory holiday – for everyone, not just federal civil servants, will that improve the attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies? Or will it just be another shopping day – the start of the holiday season (you know the thing we used to call Christmas)?

I'm prepared to guarantee that a bill to make Remembrance day a statutory holiday will include a provisions to allow stores to open at 12:00 Noon. The retail industry is too important to be hit with a major store closing day in the autumn

I'm willing to bet that most stores and malls will call their staff in at 0800 Hrs on 11 November, while a few people are at the local cenotaph, to take down the wreaths and poppies and put up the holiday decorations.

What about children? Surely they will attend at the cenotaph since they do not have to be in school? Really? Will parents bring their children to stand for an hour on a cold, often wet November morning? Will the teenagers come out on their own?

Maybe I'm just old and cynical but I'm not sure that making Remembrance Day a statutory holiday is the answer to anything. My guess is that we will remember so long as the issue is in front of us – and that, largely, is a function of the media.

 

[mariomike]

Suppose we make Remembrance Day a statutory holiday – for everyone, not just federal civil servants, will that improve the attendance at Remembrance Day ceremonies?

Cynical to say, but the supervisors used to remark that it was amazing how many sick and injured workers used to book fit for Operations on 10 Nov., then report for duty on the 11th (  for triple-time ).
If you ever have to call 9-1-1 in Toronto, 11 Nov. is a good day for it, because it has one of the highest car counts of any day of the year.

When you consider the fact that The City of Toronto has given its employees the day off with pay for more decades than I can remember, the irony is that if they came to work that day, they could observe Remembrance Day at their job sites.
Because the services are held at the City Hall, Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke, York and East York municipal centres:
Remembrance Day - City of Toronto ceremonies:
http://www.toronto.ca/lestweforget/remembrance.htm
http://www.toronto.ca/lestweforget/remembrance-city.htm

Workers at TPS and Emergency Services could watch the Remembrance Day Service at Old City Hall live on Citytv. They have huge atriums that are frequently used for similar occassions.
This would cost the taxpayers nothing, and ensure a much higher attendance of city employees at Remembrance Day services rather than sending them home.

 

[Pusser]

This is just my opinion, If 11 Nov was called  a Statutory Holiday across the country, how long would it take for some yahoo in parliment to say Hey lets make Rememberance day the first Monday in November ? Just a thought.

In the UK, they have "Remembrance Sunday," which is held on the Sunday closest to November 11th.  The military turns out on parade, but there is no holiday and e everybody reports for work the next day.  I'm not sure we want to go there.

 

[Rogo]

Many people seem to believe May 2-4 is of one significance. To finish a 2-4 of beer.  It's very unfortunate that they don't understand the historical significance of the holiday; I fear this would be the same outcome for Nov 11 should it become an official stat Holiday.

I know there are people who will not be permitted to attend because either school or work says they cannot, I always make the effort and I think I have missed only one (if any) Remembrance Day Ceremonies since I was 12. And attended every one from age 5-11 at the Cenotaph at Lt Col John McCrae's birthplace on Water Street in Guelph.

I feel that I have put in more effort than most my age to recognize the past, and I feel that it is the very least I can do. Should the day become a stat, you of course will have the turn out of all those who feel it important to be there, but you will also have shopping, gaming, kids being little tards and all sorts of innapropriate actions by those who sadly "just don't care".

 

[Rifleman62]

The following may end up in it's own thread.

The change will probably be controversial, but it may reinvigorate everyone if we honour all Veterans and get away from what some think as glorifying war.  How could the loony left and their minions not honour "peacekeepers" who lost their lives or veterans of these missions?

I think that it is time to follow the USA and "update" Remembrance Day to Veterans Day (do not have a similar Memorial Day though).


The UK has: it is Remembrance Sunday.

http://www.history.com/topics/history-of-veterans-day

Excerpt

In November 1918, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson proclaimed November 11 as the first commemoration of Armistice Day. The day's observation included parades and public gatherings, as well as a brief pause in business activities at 11 a.m. On November 11.

In 1954, after lobbying efforts by veterans’ service organizations, the 83rd U.S. Congress amended the 1938 act that had made Armistice Day a holiday, striking the word "Armistice" in favor of "Veterans." President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the legislation on June 1, 1954. From then on, November 11 became a day to honor American veterans of all wars.


The next development in the story of Veterans Day unfolded in 1968, when Congress passed the Uniform Holidays Bill, which sought to ensure three-day weekends for federal employees--and encourage tourism and travel--by celebrating four national holidays (Washington's Birthday, Memorial Day, Veterans Day and Columbus Day) on Mondays.

The observation of Veterans Day was set as the fourth Monday in October. The first Veterans Day under the new law was Monday, October 25, 1971; confusion ensued, as many states disapproved of this change, and continued to observe the holiday on its original date. In 1975, after it became evident that the actual date of Veterans Day carried historical and patriotic significance to many Americans, President Gerald R. Ford signed a new law returning the observation of Veterans Day to November 11th beginning in 1978. If November 11 falls on a Saturday or Sunday, the federal government observes the holiday on the previous Friday or following Monday, respectively.

Celebrating Veterans Day Around the World

Britain, France, Australia and Canada also commemorate the veterans of World Wars I and II on or near November 11th: Canada has Remembrance Day, while Britain has Remembrance Sunday (the second Sunday of November). In Europe, Britain and the Commonwealth countries it is common to observe two minutes of silence at 11 a.m. every November 11.

Veterans Day is not to be confused with Memorial Day--a common misunderstanding.

Memorial Day (the fourth Monday in May) honors American service members who died in service to their country or as a result of injuries incurred during battle, while Veterans Day pays tribute to all American veterans--living or dead--but especially gives thanks to living veterans who served their country honorably during war or peacetime.

http://www.va.gov/opa/vetsday/docs/2011_veterans_day_teacher_guide.pdf

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VETERANS DAY AND MEMORIAL DAY?

Many people confuse Memorial Day and Veterans Day. Both holidays were established to recognize and honor the men and women who have worn the uniform of the United States Armed Forces. But Memorial Day, which is observed on the last Monday in May, was originally
set aside as a day for remembering and honoring military personnel who died in the service of their country, particularly those who died in battle or as a result of wounds sustained in battle.

While those who died are also remembered on Veterans Day, which is observed on November 11, Veterans Day is intended to thank and honor all those who served honorably in the military - in wartime or peacetime. In fact, Veterans Day is largely intended to thank living
Veterans for their service, to acknowledge that their contributions to our national security are appreciated, and to underscore the fact that all those who served - not only those who died - have sacrificed and done their duty.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Since it's a meaty enough topic for discussion that's not exactly in line with the fate of the RC Legions, good idea - prepare to split ....... and split!

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[mariomike]

Something like Warrior's Day?
http://www.thewarriorsdayparade.ca/

 

[PMedMoe]

I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.

 

[cupper]

I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.

It is, but I think there is a failure in the education of the young into the significance of Remembrance  Day.Yes we hear about the sacrifice of those that fought and died, and we learn about why it is important to never let the memory of that sacrifice die. But at the same time we are taught that all members of the military past, present and future are part of that same sacrifice (rightly or wrongly) and this may be where the blurring of the significance begins.

But I definitely agree that we do not need to have a "Memorial Day". It's almost as if meaning of the two days have been switched in the way they are honored. The celebratory atmosphere of Memorial Day runs in opposition to the real meaning of the day, to honor the lives of those who died fighting for their country. Contrast that with the reserved quiet nature of Veterans Day which is to honor the people who served their country (a holiday in name only).

 

[Edward Campbell]

I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.

You are correct. Remembrance Day is not about veterans; they started it and (through the Royal Canadian Legion) some veterans still manage it, but the only really important people at the ceremony are the Governor General (who represents all Canadians, including the ones who remember nothing and care less) and the Silver Cross Mother (who represents all those who grieve for individual losses). The veterans, sitting in chairs, carrying flags or marching about (marching be used loosely) are window dressing. I believe we should have a Veteran's Day - making a nice long weekend in, say, February. (I would say in May but that's too close to Victoria Day which is so anachronistic that we really must keep it.)

 

[The Bread Guy]

I thought Remembrance Day (in Canada) was to remember the dead, not the survivors.

According to at least one government page on the subject (hosted at Veterans Affairs Canada), it still is:

Remembrance Day commemorates Canadians who died in service to Canada from the South African War to current missions. It is held every November 11.

That said....

It is, but I think there is a failure in the education of the young into the significance of Remembrance  Day.Yes we hear about the sacrifice of those that fought and died, and we learn about why it is important to never let the memory of that sacrifice die. But at the same time we are taught that all members of the military past, present and future are part of that same sacrifice (rightly or wrongly) and this may be where the blurring of the significance begins.

.... recent messaging from politicians muddies the water a bit as well - from the PM (highlights mine):

“Tomorrow, we honour generations of brave Canadian men and women in uniform who have fought to defend our country and to promote and protect the values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Canadians have always stood ready to defend their country and in the last century nearly two million have served in two World Wars, Korea, Afghanistan, Libya and various other conflict zones. Sadly, we also remember those who, in doing so, have paid the ultimate price with their lives.

“The values our veterans held dear decades ago are still very much alive today in those who continue to serve our great country, be it at home or abroad, through peace support or combat missions.

“The unparalleled spirit, skills and devotion of the members of the Canadian Armed Forces are an example for us all, and our thoughts remain with members currently serving in Afghanistan.

“There are no words to express our profound gratitude to our service men and women who – together with their families and friends – put the interests and security of our country ahead of their own.

“Lest we forget.”

.... through the Minister of National Defence:

“Every November 11th, Canadians come together to mark the service and countless sacrifices of Canadian Forces members, past and present, here at home and around the world.

We recall when the absence of freedom and security rallied the very bravest of Canada's sons and daughters to defend our most sacred values and ideals.

We remember the void left in the hearts of so many who anxiously waited for their loved ones to return to Canada, and reflect on the loss of members of our forces who never returned home.

We recognize all those who served, and those who continue to serve, absent any thought of their personal security.

This year, members of the Canadian Forces ended their combat role in southern Afghanistan and moved to a non-combat training mission centred in Kabul. Risks are inherent to any mission in Afghanistan and our men and women in uniform continue to sacrifice and make a real difference in the lives of Afghans.

Earlier this year, over 650 military personnel began a mission to protect Libyans against violence and threats of violence by the Gadhafi regime. Our planes and frigates have been front and centre in this conflict and I'm proud of what the Canadian Forces have accomplished.

Both of these operations, and numerous other activities at home and around the world, continue the strong traditions of the Royal Canadian Navy, the Royal Canadian Air Force and the Canadian Army.

On Remembrance Day, when Canadians from all corners of this great country join together in silence, may we fill those empty moments with our thoughts of gratitude and compassion for the men and women, and their families, who have given so very much for the causes of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.

Canadians are eternally grateful for the sacrifices of those who serve to protect us.

Lest we forget.”

 

[NavalMoose]

The UK has not "updated" Remembrance day to Remembrance Sunday. Remembrance Sunday has been around for decades as the closest Sunday to "Armistice Day".  It is a recent development that there is a 2 minute pause on Nov 11 as well as the full ceremony on the Sunday.  The closest thing to "Veterans' Day" in the UK is "Armed Forces Day" in June and that is only a couple of years old. Just because the Yanks do it, doesn't mean we have to.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Personally, before we start mounting a campaign to change the holiday's name, I would rather we mount a campaign to make it a true national holiday rather than just a "federal" holiday observed in industries subject to federal jurisdiction only. It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. Since that would make only two compulsory national holidays, we can't exactly be accused of exaggerating.

Hopefully then, with the assistance of no business being transacted, shopping severely curtailed and media attention to the ceremonial aspects (plus some history channel type of full week "days of remembrance" special programming), people would ponder why they have a day off of that nature and slowly get better educated about it - hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.

Just my 2c

 

[Edward Campbell]

Personally, before we start mounting a campaign to change the holiday's name, I would rather we mount a campaign to make it a true national holiday rather than just a "federal" holiday observed in industries subject to federal jurisdiction only. It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. Since that would make only two compulsory national holidays, we can't exactly be accused of exaggerating.

Hopefully then, with the assistance of no business being transacted, shopping severely curtailed and media attention to the ceremonial aspects (plus some history channel type of full week "days of remembrance" special programming), people would ponder why they have a day off of that nature and slowly get better educated about it - hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.

Just my 2c

Why?

Civil servants and postal workers (workers?) have a shopping day rest day statutory holiday - damned few of them show up for Remembrance Day services. Does the retail industry really need a Christmas "kick off" that badly?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As an American president once said: Read my lips.

I said: "no business transacted" and  "shopping severely curtailed": That means, like on a true National holiday, that stores cannot open, with few exceptions such as gas stations and accommodation stores and special exemptions are required - in advance - for businesses that cannot be closed for valid reasons.  You don't have that right now, which is why those postal workers prefer to go shopping in all the stores that the provincial governments permit to be fully open.

 

[Teflon]

Personally I think Remembrance Day is Remembrance Day, has been for a long time and should remain as it is, a day to Remember those that have died in defence and service of Canada.  Any "messaging" expressing a different purpose should be what changes and the messengers reminded of the days true purpose. I admit that while attending Remembrance Day ceremonies I receive far more Thanks for my service than any other day and it is nice but I always try to politely remind them that the real guests of honour couldn't make it except in spirit. Most of the older veterans I know and have talked with after the ceremonies over a drink express similar opinions but in the end it is only that, an opinion.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . . .  :That said........ recent messaging from politicians muddies the water a bit as well - from the PM:

. . . . . Sadly, we also remember those who, in doing so, have paid the ultimate price with their lives.  . . . . .

. . . . . .

The dead don't vote, nor can they campaign or advocate against sitting politicians.  Thanks for providing those quotes of politico-babble.  I shall be contacting the PM's office to register my disgust at his inclusion of "remembering the fallen" as an afterthought.

. . . . . It should be on par with Canada day, including restrictions on commercial activities on that day. . . . . .

. . . . .  hopefully leading to better attendance at the day's activities in the future.

How to get better attendance like Canada Day?  Throw a party with free entertainment and fireworks!

While not in the same category of "old fart" like ERC, (and originally being from that unique society - Newfoundland) memories of these two days have probably coloured my view.  At one time, Remembrance Armistice Day on the rock was commemorated (like in the UK) on the closest Sunday, I'm not sure when it changed but I do have a faint memory as a very young schoolboy of pausing during class on that day for the two minutes of silence.  Memorial Day (with its ceremonies) was always July 1- Canada Day was not a big thing (or really anything) back then.