Retention / Attrition in the Infantry - Ideas???

[PPCLI Guy]

Mad Dog - an excellent topic for a paper - I wouldn't mind seeing it when you are done.

Spooks - your posts have been well thought out and very thought provoking.   They have made me review my time as a company commander in a somewhat less than favourable light - because you are right, it is too easy to let other things get in the way of what you are doing.   I have saved these posts in the unlikely event that I find myself in a Battalion again someday.

VP

Dave

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

-train more, try different things
-then be allowed to put your training to use (ie Roto 0)
-guide the solider along his carrer when possible instead of forceing him down a certain path
-rotate troops through many jobs (I don't know how many times guys have got out cause all they did was drive)
-foster trust at all levels (there are cases when the BN supports the member and others where they coudln't give a rats ass)
-more training with other Canadian units as well as forign units
-bring back sub organizations to aspire to
-reward checked out troops more

 

[Spooks]

Spooks - your posts have been well thought out and very thought provoking.   They have made me review my time as a company commander in a somewhat less than favourable light - because you are right, it is too easy to let other things get in the way of what you are doing.   I have saved these posts in the event that I find myself in a Battalion again someday.

Well, thank you very much, sir. The only thing I'd wish is that my current Pl Cmdr, OC, or Co would venture onto here and read this board.

-Spooks

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Write down the web address , enclose it and put a brown paper envelope on his/her desk....those always seem to grab attention now for some reason.......

 

[BDTyre]

A work acquaintence of mine once said of his time in the infantry, "If I wanted to do REMF stuff, I would have joined a REMF unit."

 

[P Kaye]

I have to agree with Carl G.  I was previously in an infantry unit.  I know a lot of the older officers said their contemporaries left the infantry because after a certain age, abusing ones body is no longer fun.  I would imagine it's much harder to be a good infanteer when you're over 40, and possibly getting fat (pleaes note, neither applies to me!).

Another reason is this: in the reserves, many people join infantry because that is the only option in their city/town.  There are more infantry reserve units than anything else.  So they join a trade that wouldn't have been their first choice, and this inevitably means they don't last long.
I am an example of this.  I was previoulsy in a city that ONLY had infantry.  Then I moved to Ottawa, and all of a sudden I had my choice of any trade I wanted.  So I decided to make use of my engineering education, and VOT to the Engineers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I I know a lot of the older officers said their contemporaries left the infantry because after a certain age, abusing ones body is no longer fun.  

Actually, it is the NCOs that have the toughest row to hoe.  Officers get posted out of the Battalion frequently, so the cumulative toll isn't nearly as bad.  My first Pl WO had spent 18 years straight in a rifle platoon...a better man than I.

Dave

 

[Glorified Ape]

I believe Junior officers (ie. my Pl Cmdr) can change up PT since PT is usually at the Pl level or Coy level, and if it's at the Coy level, 80% of the time it's ran by the OC. Our OC likes to runs - a lot. IMHO, no matter how inventive your PL Cmdr is, he'll still change as to what the OC would like the Coy to do (ie. run). Sometimes the senior leadership runs PT classes even for the entire Coy. My Sec Cmdr likes to run a VERY nasty pool PT period (in which the OC even notes how strenuous it is) but I'd welcome one of those in place of the week's 4th run anyday.

I could understand wanting a common physical standard amongst the company, but it seems strange that it's dictated precisely HOW that standard is reached. It seems ridiculous that the PT routines are dictated by an officer's preference. I know the military isn't a democracy but if you could achieve the same standard using PT routines that the troops actually enjoyed, why not do it?

As for the lectures, I'll say that is one of the best ideas I've ever heard an officer ever initiate (no offense intended). As far as I am concerned, if it's an activity other than cleaning it's already cool. However, you have to make the lesson actually interesting and intended to spike the intellectual minds in the Pl (and there are a lot more in a Pl than most people expect). Occasionally we get some great lectures on 'How to pack a rucksack' which would be good if it wasn't the 3rd one for the year and didn't go against the fact that everyone has their own way to pack their ruck for what they need to carry. I'll use the example of my BIQ course. We had to do basic PPCLI history, now the course plan req'd us to do certain things, but our course officer I think was very passionate about the history and he would not waste time with 'filler facts' but rather tell us some other facts about the various battles as in the exact circumstances the VC was given out for what acts. Our tour of the museum near graduation took a little longer because the tour guide was from the battle of Kapyong and told us how it was to be there.

Thanks (no offense taken - I'm not an officer yet ). It would take some work, but I think you could probably come up with lectures that would be interesting and, hopefully, may even evoke an added element of self-importance from the troops. There's no reason why it has to be a one-way exchange, either - I could see a lecture with discussion afterwards being not only interesting but a means of increasing the level of interaction between the troops themselves, but also between the troops, NCO's, and officers. It seems (from what I've read here) that the interaction between officers and non-coms is limited. It might go along way to increasing respect between the two groups if there was some opportunity to interact a little less rigidly.

You state that the junior officers are ultimately in charge of things. I see the ones just getting posted to battallion to be very energetic and gung ho. After a while at battallion (as with us all) they grow accustomed to nights off with their girlfriends or wives. Suddenly, I see the few hours spent on a PP presentation for the lecture at the end of the week suddenly be pushed aside for personal ventures. I don't blame them, it is after work hours or whatnot. Just it takes time and effort to do extra things and some people don't want to give up their extras.

Well, I see the junior officers as responsible (ultimately) for some things but more senior officers responsible for others. If PT is under a senior officer's discretion and he's doing a piss poor job of making it engaging for his subordinates, platoon morale can't be blamed on the pl. comdr. if it's being actively compromised at the company level (imo). Maybe I'm wrong.

As for the added work for the lecturing officer (or NCO - I'm sure they know just as much, if not moreso, than the officers half the time), I imagine it might pay off in higher performance from his troops and thus save him some time in dealing with performance-related problems. But again, I wouldn't know since I have absolutely no experience aside from one IAP course.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Pl cmndrs PT in my experience is driven by the CC as they tend to be young guys who don't want to rock the boat as they are brand new to the BN.  However the smart one's will listen to their troops although it is usually Run/Ruck/Run/Ruck/Sports day

 

[mo-litia]

I have to agree with most of these posts - especially Spooks; come see us militia guys should you ever get out of the Regs!

Things that really cause grief to those of us in the rental infantry - cancelled ex's at the last minute; usually due to lack of support staff and / or advance parties. Or if the ex gets off the ground, no ammo, pyro, etc.  Yelling bang bang gets to be pretty pathetic after a while.

Redundant training causes a huge turnover in my unit - I recognize and fully accept that as reservists it is important for us to keep our basic infantry skills proficient but when the troops are doing tent groups or advance to contact for the 100th time   retention is going to suffer.  

Lack of regular attendance and poor physical finess by some officers and NCMs also creates a piss poor example for the troops. There should be stricter controls on the attendance and fitness levels of NCMs and officers; lead by example, eh?

 

[Glorified Ape]

Pl cmndrs PT in my experience is driven by the CC as they tend to be young guys who don't want to rock the boat as they are brand new to the BN.   However the smart one's will listen to their troops although it is usually Run/Ruck/Run/Ruck/Sports day

Do you think the CC would crap on a platoon commander for switching up the PT, though, or would it be viewed as initiative. I suppose it depends on the CC but if you had to guess, which way do you think it would be taken?

 

[MCpl Burtoo]

Everything that has been said in these posts are true. It all points to MORAL....Anyone seen Pte.Moral lately...he is AWOL. This is a issue that seems to be getting worse and not better! I have talked with a number of buddies in the unit (all rank levels) and we are all fed up....bored....most want to get out and do something else.....it isn't fun anymore. These are guys that use to be GUNG HO. You get to a point where you say...IT WILL GET BETTER...and it doesn't! No wonder PTEs are getting out after the 1st BE! I should have, but most of us Jr NCOs, Sgts & WOs and Sn NCOs all have mortgages now, bills to pay and stick it out and hope it gets better............fingers are crossed.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

troops used to work hard and play hard.   Now its nether.   Hell in the 80's and early 90's the beer bottles had a reg. sticker on them and strippers where in the mess every Fri.
Glorified Ape I would view it as the Pl comnd not wanting to start any potential trouble his first months in.

 

[Glorified Ape]

Glorified Ape I would few it as the Pl comnd not wanting to start any potential trouble his first months in.

Yeah, I could certainly understand that... I'll probably be walking on eggshells for a long time after I first get posted. I just find it a bit disheartening that things are so resistant to creative experimentation - Infanteer's observations of the inflexibility of section attacks comes to mind. Of course, on the other side, I could see excessive tinkering by personnel muddling things up and creating problems. I guess the ideal would be some sort of middle ground.

 

[JBC]

    I'm really confidant that with the deep insight of soldiers like spook and up and coming senior leaders like Mad Dog, greater things are on the horizon for the infantry. Even within the reserve world that I was so happy to be a part of, we constantly found new ways to train, that would make being an infanteer intersting and relavant, away from ye olde reverse slope, or left flanking hasty attack. Even just a taste of Domestic Ops including , OBUA, Force protection and joint operations with civil authorities, was a REAL boost to moral for those soldiers, not to mention such GREAT ideas like foreign culture, language, and armament study. Reading these posts make me even more excited about a career in the infantry and to know that so many people are thinking BIG.

"He who dares. Wins" Just keep daring and everyone will come out winning. (even if you do rock the boat a bit) ;D

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"greater things are on the horizon for the infantry"

can't count how many times over several years I've heard this

I think Public Enemy said it "Don't Believe the Hype"

 

[JBC]

      Can't blame you at all, so I say why wait for the system? I recall that right on the PDR there are two points...one says "leading Change" and the other "initiative." I was rated extremely well on both, superior and mastered, respectively, because I took a chance and rocked the boat. Sure, i got in **** a few times, but at the end of the day, my OC understood the benefits of what i was doing. PM me for details if you wish. What I'm trying to say is that I didn't wait for the horizon to come to me, and don't intend to as a reg force soldier either. If it means staying an Lt for life, rather that than lose good men and women to boredom.

Madness yes, but hey Im still young and stupid. 

 

[Meridian]

Everything that has been said in these posts are true. It all points to MORAL....

Funny that you mention morale. I had an OC once who actually had us sit down and listen to him go on and on about how he didnt give a s---- about morale, and that morale didnt exist, and that he would not succomb to the "morale animal".

Effectively he went on to tell us that how you view your role in the forces is ultimately a personal one.. and that if you do not enjoy the morning PT, you should be getting up extra early or going off on you rown free time and doing something you enjoy better - that it isn't his job to please everyone.

At the time, our on campus food was intolerable to downright nasty, with qualifiable service along with it... (Civilian caterer, we were forced to pay for it too), and many memos had been fired up the line to the CO, who actually personally took care of it (I know, because I got dragged into the office for some reason and used as "representative" even though I hadn't taken any huge leadership role in the matter) anyway, I digress.

The point was, noone was happy (as a result of several things) and we were told to suck it up and deal, and that it would be best for our careers now to realize that morale means jack...

Boy do I miss Major....

Anyway, in reading these posts, I'd like to thank the members for their cander, and all I can think of is much of what Glorified Ape has asked (as Ive completed about as much training as him, and am currently considering rejoing the reserves, and long term, regs).

Clearly much of the forces' issues are institutional in nature - training budgets are hard to change, and Senior Leadership often get so used to saying no, they have bigger problems with setting the precedent of saying yes and being the only guy out there to do it.

I personally can see myself getting to a unit and standing my ground all gung ho, saying that Im resposible for the primary welfare of my soldiers, so Im gonna run PT this way, and if I get in crap, well I get in crap, but at least Ill be doing my duty...    But I have a feeling someone would have a "pick your battles" sitdown with me, and stuff like PT and mixing up a regular day would fall off the front burner to the backburner and then splash into the little tray in the back.

I guess what it takes is more of the Middle leadership to take a stand...  


[edit to correct the spelling of morale]

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

JBC good luck with that.  I hope you stay true to what you believe now but I've seen many officers decide they want a career out of this and progress as high as possible.  By stepping on toes this diminishes your ability to advance so some officers choose not to rock the boat.  They are only in BN for a couple of years at a stretch as it is.

A lot of it comes to office politics.  MANY CSM feel that if you as a soldier wish to make a change in your CF career you are a traitor to the Regiment and will be subsequently black listed and get the shit jobs/taskings/courses taken away etc not because they have a hate on you of course but because those postions need filling.  Yeah right.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

Main Entry: 1mor ·al
Pronunciation: 'mor-&l, 'mär-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>

Main Entry: mo ·rale
Pronunciation: m&-'ral
Function: noun
Etymology: in sense 1, from French, from feminine of moral, adjective; in other senses, modification of French moral morale, from moral, adjective
1 : moral principles, teachings, or conduct
2 a : the mental and emotional condition (as of enthusiasm, confidence, or loyalty) of an individual or group with regard to the function or tasks at hand b : a sense of common purpose with respect to a group : ESPRIT DE CORPS
3 : the level of individual psychological well-being based on such factors as a sense of purpose and confidence in the future


Sorry guys, my face started to tick.........