Retention vs Recruiting

[Pusser]

Sorry, I don't believe we have a big enough force to allow people to go on a 3 year GD program.  I also think you'd find that a lot of people walking into recruiting centers might rethink the CAF as a career if they were told "oh, know, you won't be a Naval Electronics Technician until after 3 years minimum of scrubbing pots and doing cleaning stations.

Not sure where you are posted, but it strikes me that it may have been a while since you've been at a line unit and lead the new generation of young people coming into the CAF...

However, the reality is that we currently train people for these great jobs, but they actually then end up scrubbing pots and doing cleaning stations a good part of the time anyway.  In my plan, at least we're up front about it and then dangle a significant carrot at the end.  Right now, we see a lot of folks leaving at the end of their BEs and taking their expensive training with them.  Perhaps, if we expose them to the military lifestyle, before we invest heavily in training, then better decisions can be made and the ones who stay for the later training will be more inclined to make a career of it.

I realize I speak heresy, but it's not like the current system is working so well that there's no room for different ideas.

PS:  I believe the Royal Australian Navy has a "gap year" program that does something similar to what I've described.

 

[Remius]

Well I think you have it partially right.  After their VIE anyone should be allowed to remuster if they can qualify for another trade.

When I was a recruiter 10+ years ago many people up and left because their trade wouldn't let them transfer to something else.  There should be a program that allows people to sign up for any of the grunt jobs (infantry armour, boatswain etc) with the promise that after their VIE and if they can qualify to remuster to another trade (targeted trades could be a consideration).  In fact some trades should go back to being remuster only.  Or sign on for longer in your trade with an educational bonus or re-signing bonus. 

 

[Quirky]

So you’re proposing the CAF invest money in someone to get them BMQ qualified, pay them for three years to do GD work, then pay for their education when they release even though at no point have they ever been trade qualified and therefore not really that useful in the grand scheme of things?

Not GD work, have them do job shadowing or OJT.

[qoute]I don’t understand your “you’re on the hook for costs associated with keeping you in the CAF for the three years” comment.  Are you saying they would have to pay back their salary during that time thus rendering their last three years of work as having no compensation for them?[/qoute]

Salary they can keep.

[qoute]Sounds like a fiscal nightmare at best and would completely cripple certain (if not all) trades.  I joined because I wanted to go to Afghanistan.  If I had been told by recruiting “ok join, and in three years you may or may not get loaded onto your trades training to learn to how to do armoured stuff, and then a year or two after that you may get to go on tour” I can assure you I would have walked out of the recruiting office and I imagine most others would as well.
[/quote]

This wouldn’t apply to all trades since some trades have higher costs than others to make someone trades qualified. We already waste how much money keeping people on warrior/PAT platoons for god knows how long, not to mention the untold number of shit pumps who couldn’t be trusted to flip burgers let alone turn wrenches. Our biggest problem right now has already been mentioned in this thread. The good people who you want in charge release because they are frustrated with all idiots making the same money and benefits for doing more work. What’s the saying, you are rewarded for your hardwork with more work?

 

[mariomike]

The U.S. Army Recruiting Command asked RAND Arroyo Center to undertake research to improve its understanding of soldiers' motivations to join the Army, and how the reality of Army life matches up with expectations.

The majority of soldiers believed their Army service would help them find future work.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2252.html?utm_source=WhatCountsEmail#download

They have reason to, in the US.

QUOTE
Military Veterans

The NYPD has a special place for those who have served, and we value the training, skills and management experience of military personnel, which is one of the main reasons we actively recruit veterans.

Additional benefits available to military veterans include:
•Veterans can earn GI Bill benefits in addition to their salary during their first two years.
•Police Officer Exam scores are kept on file indefinitely. Upon leaving the U.S. Armed Forces, veterans have 6 months to start the hiring process.
•Veterans can add 4 years to the maximum hiring age, or 6 years if they served during war or national emergency. This applies only to veterans under age 40.
•Veterans can buy back three years of their military time to be applied to their NYPD retirement.
•Officers who are active reservists are allowed 30 paid military days per year, in addition to their vacation time.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page

LAPD
MILITARY CREDITS

"Military credits (5 points) are normally given only for a five-year period following the date of separation from active duty. If you served on active duty status in the U.S military during any one of the following periods, you may qualify to have the five additional veterans points added to your Personal Qualifications Essay (PQE) score."


END QUOTE

Although, regarding candidates with PTSD claims,

QUOTE

New York, New York—Disability Rights Advocates (DRA), a national nonprofit legal center, filed a Charge of Discrimination for Julio Andrade, a former Marine, after the Fire Department of the City of New York (FDNY) denied him a job as a Fire Fighter because of a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) he received at the time of his honorable discharge from service in the Iraq war, approximately 8 years earlier.
http://dralegal.org/featured/fdny-violates-ada-pre-judging-veteran-applicants-unfit/

"Julio Andrade passed every test to be a firefighter, but a department psychiatrist DQ’d the Marine with stereotypes like ‘people with PTSD can’t socialize’ "

END QUOTE

But, in Toronto,

QUOTE

Q: I am a current/past member of the military. Do I get special consideration?

A: Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_faq.php#q28

END QUOTE

 

[daftandbarmy]

They have reason to, in the US.

QUOTE
Military Veterans

The NYPD has a special place for those who have served, and we value the training, skills and management experience of military personnel, which is one of the main reasons we actively recruit veterans.

Additional benefits available to military veterans include:
•Veterans can earn GI Bill benefits in addition to their salary during their first two years.
•Police Officer Exam scores are kept on file indefinitely. Upon leaving the U.S. Armed Forces, veterans have 6 months to start the hiring process.
•Veterans can add 4 years to the maximum hiring age, or 6 years if they served during war or national emergency. This applies only to veterans under age 40.
•Veterans can buy back three years of their military time to be applied to their NYPD retirement.
•Officers who are active reservists are allowed 30 paid military days per year, in addition to their vacation time.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/careers/police-officers/po-benefits.page

LAPD
MILITARY CREDITS

"Military credits (5 points) are normally given only for a five-year period following the date of separation from active duty. If you served on active duty status in the U.S military during any one of the following periods, you may qualify to have the five additional veterans points added to your Personal Qualifications Essay (PQE) score."


END QUOTE

Although, regarding candidates with PTSD claims,

QUOTE

New York, New York—Disability Rights Advocates (DRA), a national nonprofit legal center, filed a Charge of Discrimination for Julio Andrade, a former Marine, after the Fire Department of the City of New York (FDNY) denied him a job as a Fire Fighter because of a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) he received at the time of his honorable discharge from service in the Iraq war, approximately 8 years earlier.
http://dralegal.org/featured/fdny-violates-ada-pre-judging-veteran-applicants-unfit/

"Julio Andrade passed every test to be a firefighter, but a department psychiatrist DQ’d the Marine with stereotypes like ‘people with PTSD can’t socialize’ "

END QUOTE

But, in Toronto,

QUOTE

Q: I am a current/past member of the military. Do I get special consideration?

A: Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_faq.php#q28

END QUOTE

FWIW, the British Army has come to a similar conclusion about the messages they should send to potential recruits:

Army fights troops shortfall with new recruitment ads about camaraderie

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/06/army-fights-troops-shortfall-new-recruitment-ads-camaraderie/

The Army will launch a revamped £3m recruitment advertising campaign focusing on comradeship among soldiers, after commanders admitted previous attempts were failing to turn around a worsening manning shortfall.

New television adverts beginning on Saturday will advertise the “unique lasting bonds of friendship” found in the Army and will replace a campaign boasting of the skills soldiers can learn.

 

[dapaterson]

There are three core recruiting messages; each resonates to a different degree with different people.


Learn - people join to get transferable skills.

Earn - people join to make money.

Serve - people join for the camaraderie, and sense of service.


Voila.  Mix those three concepts in differing proportions for different audiences, and you've got your recruiting advertising all done.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There are three core recruiting messages; each resonates to a different degree with different people.


Learn - people join to get transferable skills.

Earn - people join to make money.

Serve - people join for the camaraderie, and sense of service.


Voila.  Mix those three concepts in differing proportions for different audiences, and you've got your recruiting advertising all done.

But how do these three dimensions connect to the Venn Girl Paradox dynamic?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2009/09/14/the-girl-paradox/#.WwhzVjYm5n0

 

[Mediman14]

As I read through all the comments, there is a lot great ideas. If only someone would take some of these ideas to Ottawa! Within the last day or two, I recently had the opportunity to speak to an Snr Officer who claimed to be at a briefing in Ottawa about CAF Transformation given by one of the many Generals floating around. Apparently someone had opened their minds and determine that the CAF policies are to rigid. To rigid to recruit and retain our members. One example of this was that a Reg Force Mbr could switch to the PRes much easier to help dealing with life issues. Once resolved, the Mbr could be able to switch to the Reg Force again. Another thing was to allow LWOP option more readily available to mbrs. However, one suggestion I have is to support our Mbrs instead of quoting or going by some policy that is outdated! Maybe this could be the job of one of those Generals that float around!

 

[jollyjacktar]

Did you miss the part where I said exactly that? 

Some folks seem to think I'm recommending that we enroll people for three years to paint rocks.  Far from it.  I'm arguing that first and foremost, we need to train personnel to be sailors, soldiers and air people.  After that, they can be usefully employed doing real jobs that don't require a lot of specialized training AND be exposed to the more detailed tasks that will require that more specialized training.  The key to this is that folks need to be sent to front line units and deployed sooner, rather than later.  A sailor doesn't need to complete his QL3 WEng Tech course before he joins the scullery party of his first ship, so why not wait until he's spent some time at sea and had a chance to observe and help out in all the Departments on board before he selects a trade?  More experience makes for better choices. 

I'm not talking about make-work projects.  The jobs I envision these folks doing are jobs that need to be done and are being done by our most junior personnel.  I just don't see the point of spending thousands of dollars in training someone for a technical trade right at the beginning when a large part of their first three years are going to be spent on the mundane tasks anyway.  Furthermore, instead of training for trades that people chose based on recruiting pamphlets and videos, why not give folks a chance to actually work alongside people already in those trades in order to get a better feel for what they're getting themselves into?  By doing this, both the CAF and the individual will have a better opportunity to make more informed decisions. 

The mundane tasks need to be done anyway and the most junior people are going to do them.  Let's get a better bang for our training buck by delaying the more intense, difficult and expensive (i.e. trade) training until a point where we can all make better decisions.

You don't necessarily entice people to do something by making it easier.  Sometimes you do it by making it a challenge.  I would argue that you will get a better overall recruit by emphasizing how challenging it will be, rather than how comfortable.

I must have missed that in the same way you missed my pointing out it's the early years of shit jobs ad nasuem that is driving the youngsters away and not hooking up for another 20 years of the best. 

I'm sorry, but you're far away from the coal face and lower decks as a member of the WR, especially being here in Ottawa.  I believe you're out of touch with the kids.  Hell, both you and l are old men and out of touch because of it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well I think you have it partially right.  After their VIE anyone should be allowed to remuster if they can qualify for another trade.

When I was a recruiter 10+ years ago many people up and left because their trade wouldn't let them transfer to something else.  There should be a program that allows people to sign up for any of the grunt jobs (infantry armour, boatswain etc) with the promise that after their VIE and if they can qualify to remuster to another trade (targeted trades could be a consideration).  In fact some trades should go back to being remuster only.  Or sign on for longer in your trade with an educational bonus or re-signing bonus.

Basically take the LOTP and beef it up some;  the problem right now is the OUTCAP numbers that are attached to trade health;  2% of a GREEN trades' TES can OT, 1% for AMBER and 0.5% for RED.

If the CAF really wanted, they could set more #s aside in trades that Cbt Arms folks *normally* consider for OT.  I don't know what they are, someone must have kept track of that type of info but stuff like AVN, MP, Med Tech, etc....set aside more positions for VOT (U) and make less of them avail to "off the street" recruiting.  Something like that.

Personally, I think everyone joining should start off in a trade that is 'operations focused', whether it be a sailing, soldering or aviation or direct support to those, for several years so they 'get it' once they're on the support side.  We have too many people who understand 'tail' but not 'teeth'.

 

[ballz]

Well I think you have it partially right.  After their VIE anyone should be allowed to remuster if they can qualify for another trade.

When I was a recruiter 10+ years ago many people up and left because their trade wouldn't let them transfer to something else.  There should be a program that allows people to sign up for any of the grunt jobs (infantry armour, boatswain etc) with the promise that after their VIE and if they can qualify to remuster to another trade (targeted trades could be a consideration).  In fact some trades should go back to being remuster only.  Or sign on for longer in your trade with an educational bonus or re-signing bonus.

When I started my CPA designation, the infantry career manager wanted to put me in a hard Logistics position (in Finance) for 3 years so that I could get the required work experience. The Finance branch was and is hurting for people, they would have been happy to take me on for 3 years.

The infantry would have benefited from this in my opinion, and if more people could do similar things, it would benefit the corps massively. For an Inf O to come back to the infantry corps after having worked 3 years in a position of another trade, they're coming back with far more knowledge than if the had done the typical ERE posting at an RSS position or perhaps in a G3/G5/G7 shop, or perhaps EA / PA to some senior officer, somewhere... doing essentially what they already did before they left the Battalion, and doing exactly what they will be doing when they go back to the Battalion. Bringing back the credential (the designation) in my opinion, is kind of meaningless as its just a credential but for some reason the institution likes those too. Now if you have a host of people doing this, your senior Captains and your Majors in the Units are all bringing back perspectives from having worked in different trades.

This was not doable because our machine is far too rigid, and so the infantry corps lost that opportunity (as did I... that was the preferred route). Only by pure dumb luck was the CAF at large able to retain me (I already had a release in) but it had to be in the Logistics corps... and because of our convoluted OT process, the VOT to Log wasn't even guaranteed despite the fact that the Log corps clearly wanted me to be a Log O and I was leaving the CAF otherwise because there was no way for me to achieve my personal goals. And if not for some serious intervention that honestly defied all normality, it would have been a two-year process to actually get me through the OT gauntlet and trained to OFP.... all for the sake of getting on one silly Powerpoint course. I wasn't staying on for that two-year ride, so luckily it worked out.

For me, the CPA designation is a "must-do" and doing it within the CAF has been more than just a burden. If we're going to lose people because they have personal goals which happen to also benefit the machine as a whole, we're just f**ked from the get go.

 

[ballz]

Basically take the LOTP and beef it up some;  the problem right now is the OUTCAP numbers that are attached to trade health;  2% of a GREEN trades' TES can OT, 1% for AMBER and 0.5% for RED.

Those arbitrary numbers are a huge issue. If someone is in a trade and wants out so they are OT'ing... guess what, they are probably not happy or there is something going on in their trade that isn't allowing them to achieve what they want... if they don't OT, they're probably going to move on to something outside the CAF. The CAF is going to lose them anyway, so just let them OT and perhaps you can focus your recruiting more on the trades that tend to bring people in and chew them up faster.

I think you'd agree based on your other comments that it wouldn't be a bad thing if people were coming in through x, y, z, trades but then staying in because they were able to do a, b, c, trade after a few years. All the better if x, y, z, is one of the "ops focused" trades and a, b, c, are something outside that realm.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are three core recruiting messages; each resonates to a different degree with different people.


Learn - people join to get transferable skills.

Earn - people join to make money.

Serve - people join for the camaraderie, and sense of service.


Voila.  Mix those three concepts in differing proportions for different audiences, and you've got your recruiting advertising all done.

Where is your focus group and flashy kagillion dollar consultant report?

Thought not...

 

[dapaterson]

Where is your focus group and flashy kagillion dollar consultant report?

Thought not...

Please.

It's focus groups.  All held in locations where for some reason other entertaining things to do are occurring at the same time.  Spaced out over several years.  With a final report that states that further study is warranted.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Where is your focus group and flashy kagillion dollar consultant report?

Thought not...

If it's not PowerPoint, it's not consulting

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't know how to define longstanding, but when I enlisted (1960) there was no citizenship requirement for other ranks and officers had to be 'British subjects.' We had some excellent officers and downright superb non-commissioned officers from a variety of countries and backgrounds ... including recent (15 years ago, then) enemies.

In 1973 two things happened.

Ted Heath took the UK into the EC.
Pierre Trudeau created Canadian Citizenship.

Canada and Britain turned their backs on each other and British Subjects lost rights in Canada and Canadians lost rights throughout the Commonwealth and in Britain.

God save Ted and Pierre. [cheers]

Tangent ends.

 

[jib9022]

When I started my CPA designation,

I was wondering if you were able to continue with CPA program? are you still in military as infantry officer?

I was in military too but got out and started/finished CPA program and went back again as LogO

CF pays for people to their CPA but do not pay for annual membership after, which is odd

 

[ballz]

I was wondering if you were able to continue with CPA program? are you still in military as infantry officer?

As of 10 days ago I'm a Log O. It's not been easy and hindsight being 20/20, I probably should have just went civie side to complete it. It's unlikely I would have gotten back in afterwards though.

I was in military too but got out and started/finished CPA program and went back again as LogO

Here's a good example, this does not speak very well for the machine IMO.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

However, the reality is that we currently train people for these great jobs, but they actually then end up scrubbing pots and doing cleaning stations a good part of the time anyway.  In my plan, at least we're up front about it and then dangle a significant carrot at the end.  Right now, we see a lot of folks leaving at the end of their BEs and taking their expensive training with them.  Perhaps, if we expose them to the military lifestyle, before we invest heavily in training, then better decisions can be made and the ones who stay for the later training will be more inclined to make a career of it.

I realize I speak heresy, but it's not like the current system is working so well that there's no room for different ideas.

PS:  I believe the Royal Australian Navy has a "gap year" program that does something similar to what I've described.

The problem with this Pusser is you are in effect creating a form of "National Service".  Again, I go back to my point earlier on what do we want from our Armed Forces:  A force based around mobilization where the large body of minimally trained individuals fall in on kit and rapidly prepare for war when the Balloon goes up or, a completely professional force that is rapidly deployable and designed to meet the threat(s) and fight what's put in front of us?

Either way, you still need to cloth, feed, house and pay these people so I don't see how your idea is any better than what we already do?

Continental European Armies have largely followed the anglosphere lead of completely professionalizing their Armed Forces for the simple fact that conscripts aren't particularly great soldiers when up against the professionals and the costs associated with a conscript army just doesn't make sense. 

Even the Russians have gone about professionalizing their Armed Forces because as was proven in Chechnya and Georgia, conscripts just aren't that effective.  The modern Russian Army is basically centred around 6 or 7 Divisions of Guards Armoured and Motor Rifle Brigades, Marines and VDV Airborne Brigades with a large expansion of Spetsnaz and Internal Ministry SOF. 

For how the Canadian Armed Forces is used, it makes way more sense to have a small professional force as we basically spend our entire time participating in Neo-colonial conflicts.

For the record, I think the Navy and CANSOF are the best structured elements of the CAF.  The Navy had six ship deployed for the month of April (2xfrigates and 4xMCDVs).  About 600 pers out of 13,600 total strength.  They deployed Chicoutimi earlier in the year and they obviously have other ships in workups.  Needless to say, the Navy is actually fairly busy as is the Air Force as they both have numerous standing commitments that keep them continuously occupied. 

I hear the Navy is crying for people all the time?  The Army is vastly overstrength for what it actually does and most people spend the majority of time simply trying to administer themselves and the organizations they work for, in other words, doing keep busy work.  Too many half strength units with no kit and personnel who are slaves to CFTPO.

 

[Infanteer]

I always thought these ads covered all the bases:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYeEMRXt2o