[REVISITED] Calling All Recruit Instructors!

[bossdog]

Let's try this again...

What's the general opinion on the changes in basic recruit training over the last ten years?

I think that it would be particularly beneficial to hear from current instructors that have been there to witness the changes, if any, as well as current instructors that are former recruits.

When posting, to avoid confusion, please indicate your experiences as ResF or RegF trg.

Thanks.

 

[Zoomie]

I'll bite...

Sorry I couldn't jump in your other thread, it got closed before I could read it.

I will give you my review from both sides of the street.  Being an ex-Militia QL2 (aka BMQ) instructor and then shortly after witnessing the training environment at St-Jean, I can tell you that the training ethos is quite different.  RegF BMQ at St-Jean is fundamentally different(in my opinion)  than that of a weekend or summer BMQ in the Mo.  Before your hackles get too raised, plse remember that I have taught countless QL2's and BMQs and can therefore make this submission.
I cannot attest to how it was at Cornwallis - I imagine the scope of training has not changed too much, just the intensity.  The practice of breaking the civilian down into his/her basic core fragments and then building him back up as a member of the CF is still prevelant.  I would suggest that the method of doing such a thing has changed.  In the world of SHARP et al the instructor must learn to become more inventive in his methods.  I was quite surprised when I was at St-Jean to see that instructors there were widely using Stress Positions as a form of group punishment.  This was made verboten by the Army years before and it took quite a bit of will for me to not come aboard the DS - <could you imagine as an OCdt too?>.  This just further showed me that CFRETS was a command in itself and marched to its own drum.
St-Jean living seems to be a little more on the humane side than I would have expected it to be.  Each BMQ candidate has his/her own cubicle in which to live.  The food was pretty decent and they all seemed to have ample time in which to digest it.
A good subject all around - let's see if we can get a lively diatribe going.

 

[bossdog]

That's great feedback Zoomie, thanks for joining the thread!

 

[ackland]

Well I I'm glad to see things going well in the Reg force world but as moe of about 11 years I can say at our level the change is not a good thing. The content is basically the same, after numerous AC R's by the DS staff about the fact we need to teach NBC and Grenades and the like. It is the level of stress being applied to the candidate. While  don't expect full metal jacket stile training a lot of our tools for breaking down a civie have been removed. The practice of issuing push ups as a punishment has just been reinstated at ATC Meaford but under the guise of remedial PT at the discression of the instructors. One thing I have a problem with is Mess privileges being given from  he start. I realize all members pay into the mess from the start but the is one Jr's mess and so the candidates and instructor now share the same mess not good. If candidates are in the shacks the TV's are right there now they are allowed to use them in there of time. It's getting to the point that they have no restrictions on them at all. The other point that I dispute is the off time they have. They get weekend leave with out earning it.They get hours of time to themselves at night where only the marching NCO is supposed to be there. The staff can't have them after hours.  :threat:
    The bigest pet peeve I have with all of it is the retest after retest after retest. Some students get 4 or 5 chances at it so the reserve numbers and money isn't wasted. Well 3 tries and you should be out. T.S. maybe you just aren't cut out for it.  This drains instructor time away from other duties helping the candidate study. As it is the instructors job to teach and bestow the knowledge on the students if it's not sinking in after the 20th hour of remedial practice of study we need to cut the cord. BMQ and SQ are simply Ql2 and Ql3 with out the trade specific training. So now we have a third course the DP1 to teach them. Which means no more show up a basic recruit and leave a trades qualified soldier by the end of the summer. All so that the reserve Co's can have there candidates go to ARC. it's a waste of money and was not required. the old system worked great. way did we need to fix it? ???

 

[bossdog]

Again...another GREAT post! Let's get some other perspectives...

 

[Parasoldier]

I graduated Cornwallis 10 years ago this year and went through St Jean in 2000 as I commissioned from the ranks. 

In the past ten years there has been lots of change.  I don't remember a meal in Cornwallis were I sat down and enjoy it.... there was always an instructor there with something up their arse.  In St Jean, I noticed that the recruits were always enjoying supper and lunch.  The old hard core basic training is no more. 
As a soldier we can see the poor quality of the troops that are coming into the battalions.  There are exceptions, but the majority are poorly trained and weak.  It is up to the Bn to motivate and mould into men.  Frustrating really with the pace that we operate at.
Recruits need to be constantly tested with stress.  We are training them to become soldiers and might have to endure much more stress later on.

 

[bossdog]

The early years of St Jean sound a lot like the times at Cornwallis. I remember getting a pace stick to the back of the head on day 2, stripping the floors every night followed by 2 or 3 coats of wax and rushed meals with a side of instructor crap while eating.

My neighbours wife is currently going in to week 5 at St Jean. Her husband is military as well. He tells me that although she is tired, the mental strain is next to nothing.

 

[Bert]

I'm not a recruit instructor and don't mean to hijack a thread, but I'm curious of the result or
conclusion.   In several threads, one may read opinions about the relative lax nature of BMQ and
the quality of members

I understand BMQ (old and new) is the recruit's first introduction to military life and knowledge.   For
sure it creates an impression on the recruits and conditions the senses.   Yet, BMQ is only a 10 week
course at the beginning of the career.   The recruit isn't qualified to do squat at the end of it and
there are courses/taskings further in a career that are more gruelling.   Isn't training after BMQ
just as important?   Does pace stick swattings or rushed meals significantly improve the member
relative to the softer practice of today?  

My observations are from a support MOC point of view (and not combat arms), but I've worked
with Army and Air Force units on day to day basis and deployed taskings and with older and younger
members (old and new BMQs).   The people who exceed, make the best teamwork, get
the job done, focus on the job rather than complain about it, come from both systems.   Its
personal attitude, drive, personal ethics, experience, and elbow grease.   After BMQ,
members go on with a career and all kinds of attitudes and ethics evolve.

Personally, I don't think the BMQs of either era are responsible at all for the good or the bad
issues of today.

 

[Jungle]

Very good post Bert, I agree with you that BMQ will not necessarily set the pace for the rest of a person's career.
One thing to remember: kids today (in general) are nowhere near as tough as 20 or 30 years ago. A lot of today's recruits never went camping, canoeing, fishing, hunting etc... A lot don't do team-building activities. Most spend the vast majority of their time indoors. So you can't treat them the same as before.

 

[bossdog]

Excellent point Jungle. I find parents today (my household excluded), pass on the "NO! You might get hurt" mentality that used to linger in the mist of big town suburbs.

 

[Pte. Bloggins]

Now I'm no instructor (HA far from it) but IMHO, society today is very different then that of yesteryear. Kids are generally way more coddled by parents/teachers who grew up as hippies or in that time period anyway. They've (ok, we've, cause I'm part of this generation too) don't have teachers at school who discipline them-it's just not part of society anymore. For many people, joining the military is probably one of the first times they've been exposed to a really structured, disciplined atmosphere. And for people like these, even today's watered-down version of BMQ is a shock to their system. The purpose of BMQ is to introduce a recruit to military life, correct? Well, I think that it succeeds in doing this: recruits are taught how to do basic tasks required to conduct themselves in the military and are taught teamwork. Although it may not be as extreme as in the past, I think today's BMQ still accomplishes its goal.

That's this private's 2 cents for all they're worth.  8)

 

[bossdog]

I honestly think that we need to bring back the in your face, ball busting training regime of the past. If these kids are as spoiled as we say they are then they need a rude awakening if they want to serve beside me overseas.

 

[Bert]

KTJ>
"I honestly think that we need to bring back the in your face, ball busting training regime
of the past. If these kids are as spoiled as we say they are then they need a rude
awakening if they want to serve beside me overseas."

If I am not mistaken from your posts, you have drawn a line between the members who
had BMQs "from the old days" and the BMQs of recent times and implied theres an objective
difference.  

I can't agree entirely but I understand what Jungle is getting at.   Whether you're on
deployment or performing day to day base work, you got to work with a variety of
people.   You have taskings and stuff that must get done.   Given the chain of
command, those in your section, and the members you have to work directly or
indirectly, these are the people you deal with to get stuff done.   As the
military is very labour directed, the people you work with, their attitudes, their
ability to create and use teamwork, their ability to take direction and follow to
a conclusion with drive, purpose, and a sense of humor, basically defines how
we work together.  

BMQ is just a 10 week course.   You can take any recruit of any BMQ era and
we are all the same.   We don't care what happens to us, we soldier on, and
only care about making it day by day until we can finish course and get the
he!! out of there.   Pace sticks across the back of the knees are irrelevant. The
measure of a man, or that what you bring out, doesn't originate in BMQ
and doesn't stop evolving.

Its difficult to take the moral high ground.   If the BMQ of recent times sucks
in your opinion, then how does the BMQs of the 1880s, 1930s, 1960s,
or the 1980s all compare?   They're are not the same either.   Canadian
military still soldiered on.

I'm not a 20 year member of the CF so I can't make honest comparasions of
members throughout various eras, units, and elements, but in my short career,
I've worked with some.   I can honestly say there are members who are excellent
to work with and the jobs get done all through to the other end of members
I probably never hope to work with again whether I like them or not.   I cannot
draw a BMQ line between them to say a tougher BMQ/era had any significant effect.  

Another perspective might be to remember the members of your BMQ platoon,
how they were, and how they are now.   Bringing a bunch or people together
with various characteristics; characteristics that are good, some that are
learned during the course, and those that aren't so good.   The good and the
bad persist in everyone throughout their careers.   The lazy, the competent,
the leaders, the teamplayers, the ones that persevere, all will find themselves
in some kind of "foxhole" at some point.

 

[ackland]

Set aside the knee cracking with pace sticks for a second and concentrate on the main point of the opinions here. The real point that i see is the tempo and stress that is a applied. If y you start a Career of at a high pace and teach that soldier to conduct the basics at that pace then he or she will expect that they shall need to preform to that level the all the way through their career. If you start of with a so so attitude of well johnny you missed it this time that's OK you can try again later that will be the attitude through out. I will be the first to admit that I was a slug on my QL2 and QL3 but I was never allowed to stop expectring better of myself and was never allowed to not show improvement and was only give 2 chances not 20. You can let people through who are not the perfect warrior. You must how ever make sure you are not allowing through couch potatoe's with the IQ of a worm. The other thing I am seeing coming from the recruiters is in the reserves the influx of university students. While I applaud the effort of these people I am a firm believer just because you have a GPA of 4.0 doesn't make you a intelligent or give you the ability to serve as a soldier.

 

[bossdog]

The other thing I am seeing coming from the recruiters is in the reserves the influx of university students. While I applaud the effort of these people I am a firm believer just because you have a GPA of 4.0 doesn't make you a intelligent or give you the ability to serve as a soldier.

I couldn't agree with you more however, this scenario isn't limited to the reserves.

Curious, do the reserves get a recruiting allowance of any sort if they join an understrngthed trade?

 

[ackland]

Not that I'm aware of. thought I am just a zipper head so no spec pay here either.

 

[bossdog]

You should ask some of your buddies at your unit what the differences are like from battle school (maening, then and now) and get them started on this string.

 

[Gayson]

I took BMQ last lear and to me it was a very strange experience.  This is because of the amount of times I switched staff, my first platoon got disbanded and put into the other two in the company, in my second platoon I went through 3 different plt WO's

In the original platoon we had a Sgt from the TORSCOTS acting as out WO and it was in this plt that instilled the most disapline and was the most challenging.  In today's army things like the pace stick aren't allowed so I suppose some instructors try to find other means to get at the students.  For example on the first weekend a Mcpl later promoted to a Sgt (I'll refere to him as a sgt now) brought an additional member of our platoon to us, his name was pte. Domtar and he was a brick, literally a brick.

We had to feed this brick, bathe it and take care of it.  This brick became one of our greatest responcilbilities.  The Sgt had a great sense of humor with this brick which caused many of our punishments to be caused be the brick.  If we were to screw up he would give us push-ups.  The brick being a member of the team was expected to do the push-ups as well but couldn't because it had no arms or legs.  As a result the sgt would get on his hands and knees put his face to the brick and jack it up yelling "Why aren't you doing the push ups private?  Why are you letting your team down?", all the while were doing push-ups in the background.  This was a funny sight to behold which would cause us to laugh.  Once we started laughing the Sgt would get up and jack us up for laughing "Why are you laughing?  Are you laughing at Pte. Domtar because he's handicapped? Because he has no arms or legs? Do you laugh at the handicapped?".  The Sgt would proceed to give us more push-ups for laughing at the handicapped, of course naturally the brick would not be able to do the puch-ups and get jacked up leading to a horrible visiuose cycle of push-ups until we would stop laughing.

Throughout this part of BMQ Pte. Domtar was promoted to Cpl, given cadpat, given several blue chits etc...  All to say to us that as untrained undiciplined soldiers we were more worthless than a brick.

This was by far the greatest time in BMQ, until our platoon got disbanded due to admin issues and I got a new Plt WO.  The next thing I know everything is easy as hell, were eating dinner at tables with flowers called "Cafe Royale", never getting yelled at.  Luckily the LT didn't let this go on for long.

What I am trying to say is despite the newer rules regarding recruit treatment it is still possible to train soldiers well.  A good instructor will try to find alternative means not covered by the rules.  If physical abuse is not allowed use mind games.  If you can't punish someone because there lazy and wont make timeings than give them PT under the guise that their physical fitness is lacking and that is what is causing the recruit to be slow.  The recruit will get what is going on.  The best instructors that have taught me were the ppl who did this kind of stuff.  Personally I feel that I have learned more from them than any other instructor.