Ricks Napkin Challenge- The Infantry Section and Platoon

[daftandbarmy]

I keep thinking once they've had their DP1 then 8 monthly mandatory weekends to keep the BTS etc up; 2 mandatory weekends to shake out the section/platoon drills and then a mandatory two to three week collective training exercise in the summer. Everything else is voluntary.

No, that won't work. Sadly.

Most units don't have access to field firing facilities, or qualified range staff. The best you can plan for is having PWT 3 done by the Summer. To accomplish this modest goal, you may require as many as three range weekends due to limited range facilities, ammo, trainers and inconsistent attendance (e.g., different people parade on different weekends).

Because there is no accountability for COs, and Bde Comds are completely disengaged from unit training, unit COs can pretty much do what they like with their weekends as long as the basic IBTS requirements are checked off.

I recall one year where we spent 4 x weekends, plus umpteen weekly parade nights, on drill because the CO decided we would have a full dog and pony show for the regimantal 100th anniversary weekend. Feu de Joie anyone?

Or three (futile to the point that half my company quit and I don't blame them) back to break back weekends trying to dig a platoon defensive position into the CFMETR training area - which is solid rock.

Or two, back to back, weekends where the CO decided that we should load the whole unit into trucks and drive around Vancouver Island visiting all the Legions and, oh what a coincidence, all his old cronies.

Without specific training requirements driven down from above, beyond simple IBTS passes, and a high level of supervision by Bde Comds & staff who are largely disengaged and don't understand what their real job is as Bde level leaders, it's a race to the bottom unfortunately.

 

[FJAG]

No, that won't work. Sadly.

Most units don't have access to field firing facilities, or qualified range staff. The best you can plan for is having PWT 3 done by the Summer. To accomplish this modest goal, you may require as many as three range weekends due to limited range facilities, ammo, trainers and inconsistent attendance (e.g., different people parade on different weekends).

Because there is no accountability for COs, and Bde Comds are completely disengaged from unit training, unit COs can pretty much do what they like with their weekends as long as the basic IBTS requirements are checked off.

I recall one year where we spent 4 x weekends, plus umpteen weekly parade nights, on drill because the CO decided we would have a full dog and pony show for the regimantal 100th anniversary weekend. Feu de Joie anyone?

Or three (futile to the point that half my company quit and I don't blame them) back to break back weekends trying to dig a platoon defensive position into the CFMETR training area - which is solid rock.

Or two, back to back, weekends where the CO decided that we should load the whole unit into trucks and drive around Vancouver Island visiting all the Legions and, oh what a coincidence, all his old cronies.

Without specific training requirements driven down from above, beyond simple IBTS passes, and a high level of supervision by Bde Comds & staff who are largely disengaged and don't understand what their real job is as Bde level leaders, it's a race to the bottom unfortunately.

I want to address this but its too far off topic so I'll pm you.

 

[Kirkhill]

Interesting 40 minute talk on the evolution of the infanteer's kit in WW1. In the last 10 minutes a reference to the Somme and the load of the infanteer but also a reference to the evolution of the platoon in battle. The change from 4 sections of rifles to a platoon operating as an LMG team, a rifle grenade team (40mm equivalency?), a rifle team of marksmen and a team of bombers. The platoon moved as a unit and relied on it support teams to create assault opportunitites. And most of the platoon were in the support teams.

 

[ArmyRick]

I want to address this but its too far off topic so I'll pm you.

Start a new post?

 

[KevinB]

I would define dispersed as an element being away from mutual support from its parent element. Therefore, if a section couldn't be supported by its parent platoon with direct fires and quick link up for casevac.

Going back to this.

So no more than ~ 500m for Dismounted Infantry? Would you push that further if you have LAV's dug in run ups.
I've been looking at some footage of the Russian Thermite and Thermobaric bombardments, and trying to get a handle on how to absorb that sort of punishment in a non dispersed environment.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Going back to this.

So no more than ~ 500m for Dismounted Infantry? Would you push that further if you have LAV's dug in run ups.
I've been looking at some footage of the Russian Thermite and Thermobaric bombardments, and trying to get a handle on how to absorb that sort of punishment in a non dispersed environment.

'Be somewhere else' is probably a good idea

 

[markppcli]

Interesting 40 minute talk on the evolution of the infanteer's kit in WW1. In the last 10 minutes a reference to the Somme and the load of the infanteer but also a reference to the evolution of the platoon in battle. The change from 4 sections of rifles to a platoon operating as an LMG team, a rifle grenade team (40mm equivalency?), a rifle team of marksmen and a team of bombers. The platoon moved as a unit and relied on it support teams to create assault opportunitites. And most of the platoon were in the support teams.

By 1918 that was done with and it was 3 sections all trained in idle grenades and hand grenades, and the Lewis gun section.

 

[daftandbarmy]

By 1918 that was done with and it was 3 sections all trained in idle grenades and hand grenades, and the Lewis gun section.

Covered by overwhelming amounts of artillery....

 

[Infanteer]

Going back to this.

So no more than ~ 500m for Dismounted Infantry? Would you push that further if you have LAV's dug in run ups.
I've been looking at some footage of the Russian Thermite and Thermobaric bombardments, and trying to get a handle on how to absorb that sort of punishment in a non dispersed environment.

Probably about that. I wouldn't go any further even if LAVs were there.

I should fudge my previous definition a bit - maybe a better way to define "dispersed" is probably at a range where verbal communication is not possible in normal conditions. If you and I can't call to each other to communicate, then we've dispersed. "over-dispersed" (?) is when we can't mutually support each other with our weapon systems. (This is for people, and not vehicles)

Dispersion is good, and essential for survival on a modern battlefield. You can't have soldiers all bunched up or they are a target and a liability. But there is a balance, as lone groupings that can't mutually support each other are just liable to be picked off in detail, so "over-dispersion" is not good. When I say "just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" it is "over-dispersing" (dissipating?) that I refer to.

Edit to add: Thinking more, perhaps dispersion should be based on vulnerability to specific weapons effects. If you and I can't be taken out by a single artillery round, perhaps we're dispersed? Throwing stuff at the wall here.

 

[GR66]

Going back to this.

So no more than ~ 500m for Dismounted Infantry? Would you push that further if you have LAV's dug in run ups.
I've been looking at some footage of the Russian Thermite and Thermobaric bombardments, and trying to get a handle on how to absorb that sort of punishment in a non dispersed environment.

Probably about that. I wouldn't go any further even if LAVs were there.

I should fudge my previous definition a bit - maybe a better way to define "dispersed" is probably at a range where verbal communication is not possible in normal conditions. If you and I can't call to each other to communicate, then we've dispersed. "over-dispersed" (?) is when we can't mutually support each other with our weapon systems. (This is for people, and not vehicles)

Dispersion is good, and essential for survival on a modern battlefield. You can't have soldiers all bunched up or they are a target and a liability. But there is a balance, as lone groupings that can't mutually support each other are just liable to be picked off in detail, so "over-dispersion" is not good. When I say "just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" it is "over-dispersing" (dissipating?) that I refer to.

Edit to add: Thinking more, perhaps dispersion should be based on vulnerability to specific weapons effects. If you and I can't be taken out by a single artillery round, perhaps we're dispersed? Throwing stuff at the wall here.

I'd be interested to get better information on where the Russians have actually been deploying Thermite and Thermobaric weapons. From what I've seen it appears that they have been using them more against dug in forces in heavily built up complex terrain (Mariupol, Severodonetsk) where conventional artillery is maybe less effective rather than as an area effect weapon against forces in more open terrain. Of course we're only seeing what is being published in the media, not necessarily getting a clear picture of their actual usage.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I've got a question?
Has there ever been a purely HE variant of the M 72 ever mooted?

Yep, the M72 ASM (anti-structure munition). The Brits fielded it as a UOR in Afghanistan. Did a decent job making small to midsized holes in things. No real frag, was light cased.

 

[KevinB]

I'd be interested to get better information on where the Russians have actually been deploying Thermite and Thermobaric weapons. From what I've seen it appears that they have been using them more against dug in forces in heavily built up complex terrain (Mariupol, Severodonetsk) where conventional artillery is maybe less effective rather than as an area effect weapon against forces in more open terrain. Of course we're only seeing what is being published in the media, not necessarily getting a clear picture of their actual usage.

Anywhere they find Ukrainian forces these days, and they have the munitions.
There are a bunch of thermite and thermobaric attacks in the open as well on trench lines etc.

Most of the Incendiary attacks seem to be very high busting - @AmmoTech90 thoughts on that? I'm not familiar with those sorts of munitions.
Watching several of them, they seem to burn a significant amount of their mass on the decent - which makes me wonder if part of that rationale is strict psychological terror attack - as opposed to the actual casualty producing aspect.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Anywhere they find Ukrainian forces these days, and they have the munitions.
There are a bunch of thermite and thermobaric attacks in the open as well on trench lines etc.

Most of the Incendiary attacks seem to be very high busting - @AmmoTech90 thoughts on that? I'm not familiar with those sorts of munitions.
Watching several of them, they seem to burn a significant amount of their mass on the decent - which makes me wonder if part of that rationale is strict psychological terror attack - as opposed to the actual casualty producing aspect.

I wonder if its because their ability to get conventional munitions is either limited by production or logistics. They might be throwing what they have at the UA just to keep them from getting steamrolled.

 

[KevinB]

I wonder if its because their ability to get conventional munitions is either limited by production or logistics. They might be throwing what they have at the UA just to keep them from getting steamrolled.

The Russians have no shortage of Artillery Ammunition - sure it has a huge dud rate, and some is no doubt quite old for NATO countries -- but they have it, and move it in by the train load.
Most of their Incendiary attacks are mixed in with standard HE, basically grid square shake and bake.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Most of the Incendiary attacks seem to be very high busting - @AmmoTech90 thoughts on that? I'm not familiar with those sorts of munitions.
Watching several of them, they seem to burn a significant amount of their mass on the decent - which makes me wonder if part of that rationale is strict psychological terror attack - as opposed to the actual casualty producing aspect.

I think it's target dependent. The Russian MLRS incendiary rockets deploy thermite-like, might be actual thermite or something with similar characteristics, sub-munitions that are ignite on dispersal, and fall to the ground. Ideally they should be fired at fuel depots, vehicles, AC in the open, troops in the open, or forests/dry vegetation. A-vehicles are somewhat vulnerable as the thermite is burning for a couple of minutes at 4000C. Might not do much on main armour, but it is falling almost straight down and can land on engine decks, fuel tanks (especially the fender mounted ones on T-series), set track pads/road wheel rubber on fire, etc.

Overhead cover might provide some mitigation depending on the material, overhead protection will definitely. It is not going to be pleasant in the area, if you have every walked through an area where WP/RP has functioned recently, that stuff stick to your boots and gives you a bit of a hot foot and breathing is not healthy. Thermite bits will go through your boot very quickly. It'll burn through corrugated iron, but probably just sit on top of any significant amount of dirt/sandbags. In urban areas it will very like start wide spread fires. Think about siding and cladding and how it can go up just from an electrically started house fire, now have a chunk of 4000 degree stuff burning for over minute next to it.

A Grad's payload will cover around 80x80m. Depending how you fire them, a single vehicle could cover 400-500m wide and 200m deep with a full salvo.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Yep, the M72 ASM (anti-structure munition). The Brits fielded it as a UOR in Afghanistan. Did a decent job making small to midsized holes in things. No real frag, was light cased.

Kewl

 

[KevinB]

Probably about that. I wouldn't go any further even if LAVs were there.

I should fudge my previous definition a bit - maybe a better way to define "dispersed" is probably at a range where verbal communication is not possible in normal conditions. If you and I can't call to each other to communicate, then we've dispersed. "over-dispersed" (?) is when we can't mutually support each other with our weapon systems. (This is for people, and not vehicles)

Dispersion is good, and essential for survival on a modern battlefield. You can't have soldiers all bunched up or they are a target and a liability. But there is a balance, as lone groupings that can't mutually support each other are just liable to be picked off in detail, so "over-dispersion" is not good. When I say "just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" it is "over-dispersing" (dissipating?) that I refer to.

Edit to add: Thinking more, perhaps dispersion should be based on vulnerability to specific weapons effects. If you and I can't be taken out by a single artillery round, perhaps we're dispersed? Throwing stuff at the wall here.

Roger -- I think we are in agreement on that aspect, as to the requirement to disperse to minimize damage from weapon effects - still lcoe but maintain mutual support and command and control, and casualty/logistics management.


I will amend my original LI Section to accommodate the LAV with 7 (ish) dismounts

Sgt - Section Commander
Grenadier x1
Rifleman x2
M/Cpl - 2 I/C
DMR x1
LMG X1

6" .300 BlackOut Suppressed Upper (Commanders, Signaller, Medic, Grenadiers, Riflemen and support pers)
Hk M320A1 Stand Alone 40mm MV Grenade Launcher (Section Commanders and 2 I/C)
M32A1 Multi Barrel Grenade Launcher - Grenadiers
KAC LAMG 6.5CM - LMG
KAC M110A2 6.6CM 14.5" DSR - DMR
- all weapons are light enough they can be still effectively be employed as a rifleman.

My section range band for Direct Fire Small Arms is 1,200m for the DMR and LMG's.
700m for the Grenadiers
300m for the sub combat carbine equipped personnel.
Rifleman may be assigned, Javelin, Mini UAS as required


For the Platoon - I will take 5 LAV
3 x 7 Dismount Rifle Sections and 1 x 12 man Dismount Platoon HQ

Platoon HQ
Lt
Signaller
Pl UAS OP
Javelin Op
DMR
Medic

Platoon HQ E C/S
PL WO
Signaler
Medic
Weapons Det Cdr
6.5CM C6A1/M240
Assistant Gunner

I also think the VAS aspect needs to be expanded/expounded upon.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1532052548508651520

The first OS release I have seen from current issue goggles - fused WP tubes with thermal edge detect.
They also are networked, remember the LWCLU for Javelin
Future systems and some Non OS systems have even more capability.

 

[markppcli]

Is a one man Javelin team really viable ?

 

[KevinB]

Is a one man Javelin team really viable ?

Yes. Just need ammo bearers if dismounted.
There is really no role for an A/Gunner in it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yes. Just need ammo bearers if dismounted.
There is really no role for an A/Gunner in it.

But we'd need to upgrade the FORCE test from something any middle aged, slightly overweight Office worker (like me) can pass to include some Crossfit style heavy lifting, I'm guessing