Rifles for Rangers

[1feral1]

The AIA Number 4 is probably the most expensive rifle Vietnam has ever produced and customer service/communications between AIA and it's dealers and customers in Canada got off to a rocky start.

I paid $1000AUD for my M10A2 in 7.62 x 39mm

I did understand that were some issues WRT customer service. Its just as bad here. The rifle came with no warrantry card, manual or anything in writing, plus its accessories, which included a sight combo tool, two mags, a sling, cheek pad (No.4 T type), Piccatinny rail and a cheap (ultra cheap) gun case. That is piss-poor IMHO. With the AUD at about 69c US, perhaps that might make things cheaper. Although Aussie designed and the main bulk produced overseas (assembled here I do beleive), the rifle is traditionally LE robust, and very well made.

I was told (from within) AIA liked to keep the country of manufacture hush-hush. Too bad it could not have been produced in Australia to encourage such manufacture here. AIA rifles are all CNC milled etc, under guidance from on site Aussie engineers, and of course using high quality material mind you, just the labour is cheaper. I was also told that there was other issues with the direct manufacture here, and thats why it went overseas, but who really knows.

At days end, you get what you pay for, and thats a quality rifle. I thought it was and still is over priced.  Are they still selling in Canada?? Marstar I was told did have the Cdn market.

Anyways, if they wanted to stay LE, maybe this is the way to go.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[TCBF]

... If they wanted to stay LE, maybe this is the way to go.  Cheers,  Wes

- Yes.

- I can't see Colt Canada building them.  The only domestic firearms producers are niche market (Para Ordnance, etc.).

 

[Ecco]

To subsidize the Rangers for rifles that they have is an interesting idea. So you want to give them an allowance for ammunition and let them buy what ever ammo they want. I am not sure that there is a regulation in the ammo world that would prevent this and unfortunately I don't have access to my work computer, after Christmas I will get into the books and see if I can find anything that would prevent this. Not that regulations can't be changed.

The ASSB (Ammunition Safety and Suitability Board Certification) process is what you are looking for.  There is NO WAY a rifle allowance makes sense or would be acceptable with our current regulations.  The ASSB process takes years and must be applied to all new natures of ammunition being brought into service. 

It made me laugh too.

I am still unclear about what capability deficiency we are trying to fill with a new ranger rifle.

 

[ammocat]

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a DAOD or CFAO, but the ASSB process works. Perhaps we could circumnavigate the ASSB with an extraordinary decision based on the immediate operational requirements of the Rangers.

Not clear myself why there is a requirement to replace the .303 or why in the event of some northern emergency we can't reequip them with C-7s or any other weapons and ammo they require to support the CF.

Are there any Rangers on this forum that feel that the .303 does not meet the requirements or of any shortages in weapons or ammunition?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am still unclear about what capability deficiency we are trying to fill with a new ranger rifle.

The only pro-C7/ 5.56mm argument I can think of is commonality with the remainder of the CF.

 

[1feral1]

Here is the Canadian dealer www.marstar.ca/gf-AIA/M10-N4.shtm

$799.00CAD, in Australia these rifles are currently $1075.00AUD

Regards,

OWDU

 

[TCBF]

The ASSB (Ammunition Safety and Suitability Board Certification) process is what you are looking for.  There is NO WAY a rifle allowance makes sense or would be acceptable with our current regulations.  The ASSB process takes years and must be applied to all new natures of ammunition being brought into service. 

It made me laugh too.

I am still unclear about what capability deficiency we are trying to fill with a new ranger rifle.

- What - after reading all ten pages of this thread - you are still unclear? 

- I was not talking about bringing new calibres or rifles into service any more than we have brought into service the Rangers personal boats/motors/trailers/trucks/quads/snowmachines we pay them a per diem for when they show up.  Just add rifle and ammo to the list and per diem that, too. 

 

[geo]

I should point out that there continues to be a LARGE inventory of Enfield No4s in storage... parts are plentiful (confirmed with a WO who was with them last year) and ammunition allotments are shipped up to the various ranger dets each and every year.

It is a fact that the majority of rangers currently own personal rifles in .223 / 5.56 configuration...

it is a fact, at least in the eastern area served by LFQA, that current allotments of .303 ammunition are not used up each year.

It is a fact that there aren't ranger dets in each and every Inuit community.  Stores (Co-Op and Northern) in those communities don't necessarily stock .303 ammunition - cause there isn,t a demand for it.  They stock .308 & .223 amongst others, cause there is a demand for 'em by paying customers.  Problem being that, if a ranger with an Enfield rifle shows up, while on patrol, looking for a couple of boxes of ammunition, there won't be any.

There is nothing wrong with the Enfield No 4 except that the ammo isn't always readily available.  So - we either tell em to "live with it" and carry more ammo while out on patrol OR we provide em with a good, tough rifle that can handle ammunition that IS readily available in the great white north..... and that IS .308 or .223

Alternatively, give the rangers an allowance for a locally purchased rifle & ammunition

 

[McG]

I was thinking of something more along the lines of a DAOD

Try DAOD 3002-1, Certification of Ammunition and Explosives. 

There is nothing wrong with the Enfield No 4 except that the ammo isn't always readily available.  So - we either tell em to "live with it" and carry more ammo while out on patrol OR we provide em with a good, tough rifle that can handle ammunition that IS readily available in the great white north..... and that IS .308 or .223

However, "readily available" ammunition is not authorized for use in a service rifle (see above).  Unless the local store sells ammunition which has been specifically blessed by the ASSB (and it won't), then providing a new rifle will not change anything. 

 

[KevinB]

IF it is decided that the Northern Rangers need a new rifle (and I don't think they do)
You know TCBF's comments about simply giving them an allowance for one of several approved firearms, in an approved calibre makes more sense.  They will carry a weapon they like, they will stock ammo for it (and mandate both a basicload and resupply amount).  If you limit them to .223 or .308 bolt guns - you will be able to lend CF ammo if you really really need them to (and yeas I know that the chmaber dimensions for NATO 5.56 is not the same as SAAMI .223 Rem, and NATO 7.62x51 is not the same as SAAMI 308Win - however pressure specs and various insignificant dimensions asside - they will function safely.

A Vietnam bolt gun is ridiculous.

 

[1feral1]

A Vietnam bolt gun is ridiculous

Hi Kevin,

Its only made there, we all know the design is overall British (21st century mods are Australian), and keeping with the LE tradition of reliability (equates long service life) and the robustness (little can go wrong - parts wear and breakage) of the design, make sense, along with the 7.62mm NATO calibre ( +50 yrs of NATO service and in the CF system currently), Picatinny rail (modern mount for a variety of optics), and large (10rd) mag capacity. The rifle design is combat proven with over 100 yrs of history in service.  If the CF one day has to replace the No.4, this might be the answer. To me, that makes sense.

As for the allowance of money for rifle and ammo, whats stopping that being spent on other things? It could become a rort. Look what we have seen done with CF meal allowances in the past, which in my experience in the hands of young men turned into a booze and junk food filled event on numerous occasions, or just squandered away on other things. I am guilty of that.

Wolverine and Marstar have the rifles now, so they are in Canada, and have been for going on 3 years. I can't see John and Pat H of Wolverine peddling crap.

The rifle is not cheap or a sub-standard 'Khyber copy', and NO short cuts have been taken. All manufacture has been overseen by Australians. I own one ( M10A2 in 7.62mm M-43) as many others do. I give it a healthy 9/10 overall. I don't buy or use crap either. Check out the AIA webiste I provided for more information.

Meanwhile, here is some pics of my carbine. Note, for 1st time readers here on this thread, this is the AIA No.4's baby brother, the M10A2 carbine, chambered for the Russian 7.62 x 39mm cartridge. Designed to take ready available 10 rd AK mags, which work great. These mags I beleive are Hungarian.

Production on this version has been halted, and the No.4 family is in current run. Around Australia, the 7.62 x 39mm version has become rare, and is in high demand, making it worth more, which is good.

Regards,

Wes

 

[JasonSkald]

I agree that there is really no pressing need for new Ranger Rifles. If the CF decided to purchase new ones, however, why not the Steyr Scout?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Scout

Lightweight, designed for the purpose, bolt action, could be ordered in 5.56 or 7.62mm.

Just thinking out loud,
cheers.

 

[1feral1]

More of the M10A2....

 

[1feral1]

More close ups....

The rail is removeable. Note the British 'L' type rear sight. The Long Branch rear sight, or the No.5 'Singer' rear sight can be fitted, but if so, the rail must come off. The standard 'L' rear sight can remain on with the rail.

 

[1feral1]

More still....

 

[1feral1]

A few more....

Note the newly designed bolt head with ejector and extractor. Soon as a spent case is clear of the chamber, it is immedialty ejected, unlike the old No.4, when the bolt must clear the ejector screw first.

Also note the cut in the reciever for removal of the bolt. This is copied off the Canadian No.4 Long Branch rifle. The British cut was not incorperated in the design.

 

[1feral1]

The final lot...

 

[1feral1]

I agree that there is really no pressing need for new Ranger Rifles. If the CF decided to purchase new ones, however, why not the Steyr Scout?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_Scout

Lightweight, designed for the purpose, bolt action, could be ordered in 5.56 or 7.62mm.

Just thinking out loud,
cheers.

Hi Jason, thanks for your input.

Should a replacment be required, a rifle which is robust, as in can be carried on a Ski-Doo (or similar machine in all seasons), and capable of being knocked about (year after year of hard use) in pan-climatic conditions, say +30C to -60C. Plastic on a civilan rifle not designed for military use, IMHO would be a bad decision. I have a local friend that has one of these in 5.56mm, although I have only handled it, it is not that robust. Nice rifle though, but expensive.

OWDU

 

[KevinB]

Wes,

My point is I highly doubt a small arm from a country in SE Asia is a good idea.  While a fun gun it may be - politically, and rationally, its not a good idea.

 

[1feral1]

Wes,

My point is I highly doubt a small arm from a country in SE Asia is a good idea.  While a fun gun it may be - politically, and rationally, its not a good idea.

Remember the rifle is designed and the manufacture overseen by Australian engineers (some I know). VN is only the venue, and this could be changed. The rifle is only marked 'Brisbane Australia' nothing says Viet Nam.

Fun gun, ha! Well I enjoy shooting period  ;D, but the design, and practicality of this rifle are both there. The downside would be say for the next 40 yrs what about spare parts (in qty) to maintain the entire fleet. An FTR program would not be an issue. All would have to be well researched. Whether the rifle comes from VN or a former Com Bloc country say a CZ, or even Germany, should not be a true issue as far as I am concerned.

Cheers,

Wes