Risking Civilians is curbing air strikes in Afghan War

[TangoTwoBravo]

I don't know why I get sucked into to these things, I guess its because I want to PUKE everytime I read something like this.

I wonder if the Marine lying in a DVAH, minus both legs and a arm often thinks about "Moral Superiority".

I guess in the Crusades the War of Wars of Ideologies we didn't do so well either.

I don't think there was much concern about propaganda or collateral damage concerning those two Cities in Janpan. But we sure won that War damn fast.

I also wonder why there is so much local fuss and concern about a Stupid boy who barrels towards a Check Point on a bike and refuses to halt when ordered and gets shot. But the locals hardly raise a eyebrow when a suicide bomber kills God knows how many at a Public Market. Wheres all that outrage now ? why aren't the scum torn from their hiding places and at lease given up to the authorities ?. What are we doing, worrying about bad press.

Oh ! I forgot we're out demonstrating and demanding we rescue and bring home that piece of S..t Khadr.

My heart goes out to those Brave young Men and Women who are fighting in those p... holes.

Well thats enough ammo for now, go ahead, tear away.

Perhaps I am misreading your post, but if you are trying to make parallels between the current conflict and the crusades you are helping an enemy propaganda message.

Just because we levelled enemy cities in World War II doesn't mean we should level the homes of people whose support we are trying to gain in this war.

The best way for the enemy to be "torn from their hiding places" is for the populace to do that.  Killing an enemy leader can certainly help disrupt the enemy, but if we turn the populace away from us in the process through deaths to civilians then it can be a pyrrhic victory.  Leaders can be replaced.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The best way for the enemy to be "torn from their hiding places" is for the populace to do that.  Killing an enemy leader can certainly help disrupt the enemy, but if we turn the populace away from us in the process through deaths to civilians then it can be a pyrrhic victory.  Leaders can be replaced.

+1 to that. I remember a visit I handled in Belfast from an Israeli General. We explained to him that the bad guys are arrested, tried, sentenced and jailed then can even walk the streets after they 'paid their dues'. He looked at me like I was an idiot and said "Why don't you just blow up their houses?". Given that the NI situation is pretty much wrapped up now, and this guy is still probably putting his troops into body bags, I'm pretty sure we had the better approach.

 

[stegner]

Given that the NI situation is pretty much wrapped up now.

Thankfully, it is stable now, but I would caution people from thinking the troubles are over. 

 

[2 Cdo]

+1 to that. I remember a visit I handled in Belfast from an Israeli General. We explained to him that the bad guys are arrested, tried, sentenced and jailed then can even walk the streets after they 'paid their dues'. He looked at me like I was an idiot and said "Why don't you just blow up their houses?". Given that the NI situation is pretty much wrapped up now, and this guy is still probably putting his troops into body bags, I'm pretty sure we had the better approach.

To compare the "troubles" in NI to the Middle East is dishonest. The Irish wanted the Brits out, the Arabs want the Israelis exterminated.

 

[daftandbarmy]

To compare the "troubles" in NI to the Middle East is dishonest. The Irish wanted the Brits out, the Arabs want the Israelis exterminated.

You wouldn't believe how much 'extermination' was/is on the minds of both Protestant and Catholic extremists in Ireland. I found it instructive to speak to nine and ten year old kids on both sides of the sectarian divide who only wanted to grow up and kill all the Catholics/ Protestants 'just like my Dad'. The British were/ are an afterthought for these folks and, in fact, it seemed to me that most of them actually wanted 'Brits Out' so they could get on with their own 'Final Solution' without interference. The Long War continues. Good luck to 'em!

 

[FastEddy]

You wouldn't believe how much 'extermination' was/is on the minds of both Protestant and Catholic extremists in Ireland. I found it instructive to speak to nine and ten year old kids on both sides of the sectarian divide who only wanted to grow up and kill all the Catholics/ Protestants 'just like my Dad'. The British were/ are an afterthought for these folks and, in fact, it seemed to me that most of them actually wanted 'Brits Out' so they could get on with their own 'Final Solution' without interference. The Long War continues. Good luck to 'em!

Ahhh! "Good luck to 'em" , this from a person expounding the virtues of the British Justice System to visiting Foreign Military Generals. You forgot one thing, he's was dealing with Terrorists your dealing with Criminals who on the whole re-offend again anyway. And if you think  "Amed" after five years, is going to be a upstanding lawbiding Westerner, if given the chance will blow you and your family sky high and laugh all the way to the Mosque.

And now for those who can't tell the players without a program.

1.  No, only to the extent that "Ideologies" good or bad, does guarantee a conflicts outcome. Whatever Deity is on your side means S..t, somebodies going to loose.

2.  "Torn from their Hiding Places" meaning the people that are so outraged, the native population. I do believe that some of the greatest Empires have been torn down by the masses  after they just can't take it anymore. If they want the Taliban out, then do something more than pay lip service.

3.  Its very convenient to be able to distinguish between Enemy Civilians (Women, Children and Infants) and Good Civilians , I guess for the Morally correct it solves  a great deal problems.

4.  As for Public Support of Canada Military Missions, its a pity we're not as concerned with what's going on in our own back yard. But that's another Thread.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

And now for those who can't tell the players without a program.

1.  No, only to the extent that "Ideologies" good or bad, does guarantee a conflicts outcome. Whatever Deity is on your side means S..t, somebodies going to loose.

2.  "Torn from their Hiding Places" meaning the people that are so outraged, the native population. I do believe that some of the greatest Empires have been torn down by the masses  after they just can't take it anymore. If they want the Taliban out, then do something more than pay lip service.

3.  Its very convenient to be able to distinguish between Enemy Civilians (Women, Children and Infants) and Good Civilians , I guess for the Morally correct it solves  a great deal problems.

4.  As for Public Support of Canada Military Missions, its a pity we're not as concerned with what's going on in our own back yard. But that's another Thread.

Maybe I can't tell the players without a program, but I am still having a hard time following your arguments.

1.  What exactly is your point about ideologies and deities?  How does this link back to your mention of the Crusades? There are winners and losers in a conflict.  So?  What does this have to do with the thread?

2.    Are you agreeing that we want the local population to get rid of the enemy?  I ask because I read your first post as meaning we should go get the bad guys no matter what.

3.    You initially raised the point about dropping bombs on Japan and how that "ended the war pretty darn quick."  In the context of this thread that looks like you are saying that we should bomb first and ask questions later, since it seemed to work against Japan.  My point was that we were at war with Japan. We are not at war with Afghanistan.  In your response to me, however, you seem to play a morality card by saying that it was convenient to distinguish between enemy civilians and good civilians.  Since you offered the example of bombing Japan, what exactly do you mean?  My point was that what was going in 1945 in the context of a World War may not carry over to an insurgency where we are there to help the populace.

 

[stegner]

Maybe I can't tell the players without a program, but I am still having a hard time following your arguments.

Ditto.  Are there some examples to support the arguments?

Two points struck me as curious: 

Which Empires have fallen due to mass domestic unrest, rather than exogenous forces?

Who are the good civilians and who are the bad civilians?  Can one be a good Afghan without supporting NATO? 

 

[FastEddy]

Maybe I can't tell the players without a program, but I am still having a hard time following your arguments.

1.   What exactly is your point about ideologies and deities?  How does this link back to your mention of the Crusades? There are winners and losers in a conflict.  So?  What does this have to do with the thread?

2.    Are you agreeing that we want the local population to get rid of the enemy?  I ask because I read your first post as meaning we should go get the bad guys no matter what.

3.    You initially raised the point about dropping bombs on Japan and how that "ended the war pretty darn quick."  In the context of this thread that looks like you are saying that we should bomb first and ask questions later, since it seemed to work against Japan.  My point was that we were at war with Japan. We are not at war with Afghanistan.  In your response to me, however, you seem to play a morality card by saying that it was convenient to distinguish between enemy civilians and good civilians.  Since you offered the example of bombing Japan, what exactly do you mean?   My point was that what was going in 1945 in the context of a World War may not carry over to an insurgency where we are there to help the populace.

1.    Maybe the examples concerning Diety's, Rghtioness and mention of the Crusades was a bit too dramatic But my point originally was to argue that such attitudes or actions do not always work or are necessarily the right course of action at the time.

2.  On both occasions I have attempted (maybe poorly) that yes, the Taliban Official should have been killed or captured one way or another. And yes if they are so damn outraged at  the outcome or our methods some times, they can stop hiding them and start denouncing them.

3.  On Empires, read a little Chinese History it shows that the populace can do anything they want, if they want it bad enough. Maybe even with our help or without it.

4.  Good or Bad Civilians, I thought Civilians were Civilians and non combatants which ever side they were on.You've indicated that was a war, a whole different storey. This of course is just a Insurgency and by Invitation !. Of course collateral damaged is out of the question, obviously in your opinion.

5.  Before you suggest that I support indiscriminate Bombing, NO I DON'T. If calculated Smart Bomb application with minimun collateral damage on High Priority Targets YES I DO. Its a risk we and the Afghan People should expect and accept.

Its very disheartening, its okay for us to get Blown Appart, but God forbid that one of them should get in the way or as recent cases, throw them selves under the bus.