RPAS (was JUSTAS): the project to buy armed Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) UAVs

[thunderchild]

I know there is much more to what you do, and any replacement is going to be expensive.  I used the P-8 for the following reasons
1. support would be easier as the aircraft is a 737-800 so the cost and availability of spares would be easier on the budget.
2. The aircraft will be operated buy the U.S. so inter operations and training should be easier.
3. The range of the aircraft is better than the smaller platforms like the P-99 so loiter times are better.
4.  Weapons are NATO compliant.
5. I can't speak on Electronics and any help here would be appreciated.
6. The aircraft is a complete new build not a 90% new aircraft as with the new Nimrod. (this could restrict the number of aircraft available)
7. The Nimrod is having big troubles budgetary and technically.
8. Edas is not going to build a 319/320 based system unless India Buys it first.
9. The P-8 will likely reach production first.
If you can add or correct anything here let me know but I think I have it right.

 

[aesop081]

This isnt a P-8 thread. We already have those. But for a start, some of your assumptions are inaccurate or just plain incorrect.

 

[navig8ur]

Could not agree more with Zoomie WRT new wings/tails.

Double edge sword in that we have have been given a new lease on life with current fleet; however, with the current Dept fin pressures it means we will fly this fleet for some time and CMA is probable DIW.

Frankly, far better to have an aircraft we know how to operate as opposed to be an early adopter of both a new frame and mission kit.

 

[aesop081]

Frankly, far better to have an aircraft we know how to operate as opposed to be an early adopter of both a new frame and mission kit.

I disagree. Block III will be a substantial change to the way we do buisness and introduces systems for which we have little corporate knowledge. New wings or not, the aircraft has other issues that are not related and i still maintain that " no matter what you do to a 1960 chevy, its still a 1960 Chevy". We still face a huge training bill with the new systems and IMHO, a switch to a brand new aircraft would not have been much more difficult to implement.

Recent experience with block II upgrades tell me that the entire block III and ASLEP process will be painfull, the conversion training will be slow and the proficiency of crews during the process will fall to what I consider unacceptable levels.

Comit to a replacement aircraft and be done with it. Stop work on the CP-140 past block II and ASLEP.

 

[Zoomie]

Block III will be a substantial change to the way we do buisness and introduces systems for which we have little corporate knowledge.

The newly released automation report covers these issues and are being addressed by the syllabus at the FTS.  The current gen of front-end crew may have issues, but the new crews coming on line will be well versed and capable of the AUP fleet.

 

[aesop081]

The newly released automation report covers these issues and are being addressed by the syllabus at the FTS.  The current gen of front-end crew may have issues, but the new crews coming on line will be well versed and capable of the AUP fleet.

Block III will have a huge impact in the tactical compartment. This is what i was alluding to. For the front end, most of the transition will already have been done during block II. The jump between the legacy tactical systems and the block III systems will be huge and some people will not be able to make the transition.

 

[navig8ur]

Somewhat of an academic discussion regarding the issue of new wings/tails vice a new airframe given a contract signed recently between the crown and LM for 10 sets.

The CP 140 was a big leap from the Argus and we did not jump right into utilizing the new kit to it's full capability right away since the inexperience of the crews did not allow for full exploitation.  It was an interesting time since we really had a significant generational gap in the aircrew which made for many eventful flights. 

 

[MarkOttawa]

The MND seems to think the Herons in Afstan have also won the JUSTAS project:

Poor Peter II: Boy is he confused
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/02/poor-peter-ii-boy-is-he-confused.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

A Torch post:

Armed UAVs in CF's future not hot, scary news
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/03/armed-uavs-in-cfs-future-not-hot-scary.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[The Bread Guy]

....(second item) - JUSTAS delayed (is JUSTAS denied? - sorry, couldn't help myself)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/85988/post-843052.html#msg843052

".... The JUSTAS programme is predicated on a partnership with industry. Our aim with industry interaction is to collectively share and receive relevant information in support of this partnership. To maximize the value of these interactions, the JUSTAS Industry Day scheduled for May 26, 2009 is hereby deferred until key project parameters are available for release to industry ...."

 

[dimsum]

Just to update an old post, but some folks from the Project Management Office and A3 UAV shop came by to talk to a few of us about the JUSTAS project last week.  They are looking at a base survey starting in Dec and hopefully completed by Christmas.  No word on the locations they are looking at, but one of the guys in the UAV course suggested Mirabel airport, to which one of the PMO staff said "...we've never looked at that." 

He went on to explain his argument for Mirabel.  While weather and proximity to ranges were big factors in places such as Cold Lake and Goose Bay, some of the requirements for the JUSTAS UAV that were mentioned would make it a moot point.  Mirabel also has proximity to Ottawa so the brass could sit in and watch, and access to 4 different ranges to work with other units (Pet, Gagetown, Valcartier and Bagotville.)  Plus, the human factors benefits of living in a city vice Cold Lake would mean jobs for spouses, schools and social life for families or single members, and no requirement for screening for semi or isolated postings.  If, say, there's an EX going on in Wainwright or a maritime patrol in Comox, the whole idea of a satellite-based UAV system would mean that a small team could deploy with the UAV to the site, launch it, turn over control to the sqn in Mirabel, and later take control of it for landing. 

Now I'll just speak for myself here, but given the choice of Mirabel or Cold Lake/Goose Bay/wherever...well I'd rather be practicing my French and living in Montreal.  That alone could make UAVs a highly-sought-after posting for the ACSOs that will eventually man it. 

Discuss.

 

[George Wallace]

Haven't you heard?  The Bloc plans on pulling Quebec out of Confederation in the next Election.    >

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Dimsum,

Are you saying that, in effect, Transport Canada is about to agree that UAVs can operate in Cdn airspace other than Class F?

That would be an interesting (if overdue) development.

 

[dimsum]

Dimsum,

Are you saying that, in effect, Transport Canada is about to agree that UAVs can operate in Cdn airspace other than Class F?

That would be an interesting (if overdue) development.

At the moment, no.  However, some of the other reqs A3 mentioned (IFR capability, etc) are also not possible/allowed at the moment.  If we plan on using this system for surveillance, one would hope we wouldn't need to create Class F every time we go on a patrol.  Or, as the whole thing is relatively portable, we could send an airframe, a launch station and a few people via rail or road...like the Heron system now.

 

[Zoomie]

The plan that is in the works is that a new trade would be created from which the initial cadre will be pulled from the ACSO trade.  These AVO's would undergo some sort of basic flight training and receive an IFR ticket - this would essentially allow them to "fly" these machines in all airspaces across Canada.

I have heard differing plans that are changing on a monthly basis - this is the latest that I heard from the Div just last week.

Apparently some sort of half-wing would also be created for the AVO's.

 

[dimsum]

About the Class F requirement, does the FAA allow US UAVs to fly in non-military airspace?  I wonder how it'd work with Predators patrolling the Canadian border.  There are countries (ie. Israel) where UAVs operate with other aircraft in the same airspace with no special rules as far as I know.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The plan that is in the works is that a new trade would be created from which the initial cadre will be pulled from the ACSO trade.  These AVO's would undergo some sort of basic flight training and receive an IFR ticket - this would essentially allow them to "fly" these machines in all airspaces across Canada.

I have heard differing plans that are changing on a monthly basis - this is the latest that I heard from the Div just last week.

Apparently some sort of half-wing would also be created for the AVO's.

That's news to me and a few people who really should know if something like that was actually going to happen.

Straight from the ACSO Career Manager today- ACSOs are doing AVO.  It is not a sub-occupation or a separate occupation.

 

[dimsum]

That's news to me and a few people who really should know if something like that was actually going to happen.

Straight from the ACSO Career Manager today- ACSOs are doing AVO.  It is not a sub-occupation or a separate occupation.

Anything else new from the CM brief regarding this? He had mentioned that before but said that he'd have more info around this timeframe.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Nothing shocking, other than NATO may be setting up a UAV Sqn which may have some Cdn participation.  No time lines or firm numbers.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Post at The Torch:

Project JUSTAS: Long-term UAV acquisition still moving right
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/05/project-justas-long-term-uav.html

A shortage of personnel, and likely funds, for the MALE (medium-altitude long-endurance) UAV system. First delivery slipppig two years to 2014, fully operational in 2017--the possible slippage had in fact already been reported in November 2008...

Mark
Ottawa