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Russia working on new nuclear weapons

>Brad, their conventional forces are clearly way ahead of any aquisitive neighbours

I was thinking more along the lines of Chinese proximity to underdeveloped regions into which it is moderately difficult to deploy.  My gut feeling (which could easily be wrong) is that a scrap over the far eastern regions could very quickly devolve into a fairly basic infantry war in which technological and mechanization advantages are difficult to exploit.
 
Missle defense makes sense if you think of a small scale attack by a country with very limited capabilities, or even an accidental firing.  A wide scale thermoneclear war between the major powers (be they Russia, US, England, France, China, Israel, and the others) would likely overwhelm any missle shield. 

Some people fault the US for tossing out the ABM treaty, but the Soviets and Russia already violated that long ago and continue to develop anti-ICBM capabilities. 

As much as we hate nukes, one has to admit they have prevented a major super power war for the longest time in the last 100+ years.  The 60 year gap since WW2 is proof of that.  The "War to End All Wars" WW1 was closely followed my WW2.  Granted we had the "Cold War" but it quite possibley been worse had the nukes not been that last resort option. 

I personally think defensive systems should be developed, and I don't think we (the US) is just considering the big boomers (ICBM) only.  Would it be better is the world was free of ALL nukes, yes.  If that a rational expectation? no.  Will a nuke be going off in our future, yes.  Let's face it, it's 60+ year old technology, it's not rocket science anymore, still costly yes, but it's only going to be getting easier to build one.

I also think the western nations should band togarther to build one, for example what if the western nations built one... and leater India and Pakistain jam sticks into each others eyes, and one of them gets pissed, is loseing and figures oh well..... pushes the button....

Option one:
    The shield system shoots them down, and if need shoots down both sides missles.  Things calm down or at least nukes are going off all over.

Option two:
    mushroom clouds all over the paki-inida area.

If option one is fesible, don't you think thats money well spent?

It makes sense only if it's used to defend everyone, not just the US. 

 
Where on earth did you get the idea that new Russian missile technology would be able to penetrate the US BMD "shield" (assuming of course that the BMD technology becomes fully operational)?

That's the premise of the article.......is it not?
 
Caesar said:
That's the premise of the article.......is it not?

Perhaps, but surely you don't believe everything you read?   I apologise if my question seemed a little aggressive; I admit I was a little irritated by the way you stated it as fact:   "Missile Defence isn't even operational, and Russia has already countered it."

Once again, I apologise for snapping at you.

Take care,
Richard
 
No worries RDA. It takes a lot more than that to offend me. And no, I tend not to believe everything I read, but I do find this story really interesting, if not a little surprising.

ps - I've been accused of being a tad agressive in the past as well, so I can't really fault you for that.
 
RDA said:
Perhaps, but surely you don't believe everything you read?   I apologise if my question seemed a little aggressive; I admit I was a little irritated by the way you stated it as fact:   "Missile Defence isn't even operational, and Russia has already countered it."

But Russia can easily defeat Ballistic Missile Defence. The BMD is only intended to stop a few missiles fired by a rogue state with a limited arsenal. Russia and China (UK and France too probably)  could overwhelm the system rather easily.
 
Enfield said:
But Russia can easily defeat Ballistic Missile Defence. The BMD is only intended to stop a few missiles fired by a rogue state with a limited arsenal. Russia and China (UK and France too probably)   could overwhelm the system rather easily.

It's a work in progress.  Give it time.
 
Game theorists have used the classic "prisoners' dilemma" to explain why nations find disarmament treaties difficult to uphold.   I'm sure many of you are familiar with this analysis, so please bear with me because there is a treat at the end.   For those who are not familiar with the "prisoners' dilemma", here is the basic gist of it:

For the sake of pretending that I'm not digressing from the topic of this thread, let us use Russia and the U.S. as players in this game.   The goal of each player is of course to win the game, which in this example translates into maximizing national security.   Each nation has two basic choices once a disarmament treaty has been signed:

1.   Disarm (cooperate)
2.   Arm (compete)

While deliberating, the U.S. asks itself what choice would be in its best interest in each possible scenario:

Scenario A - Russia Arms

(Choice 1) If U.S. Disarms: Russia = safe and powerful, U.S. = at risk and weak.
(Choice 2) If U.S. Arms: Russia and U.S. = at risk.

Conclusion:   If Russia reneges on its commitment and arms itself, the best choice for the U.S. is clearly to also arm itself.

Scenario B - Russia Disarms

(Choice 1) If U.S. Disarms: Russia and U.S. = safe.
(Choice 2) If U.S. Arms: Russia = at risk and weak, U.S. = safe and powerful.

Conclusion:   If Russia upholds its commitment and disarms, the best choice for the U.S. remains to arm itself, since its goal is to maximize its national security.

The results from this analysis demonstrate how, regardless of Russia's choice to arm or disarm, the rational and best choice for the U.S. when considering its options is to arm itself.   Of course, Russia conducts a similar analysis and reaches the same conclusion.   In the end, both nations choose to arm and the treaty falls apart, leaving both nations less safe than they would have been if they had both upheld the treaty and disarmed.

In the disarmament game, the dominant strategy, i.e. the strategy that is best for a player regardless of the strategies chosen by other players, leads to a less than optimal result.

Here is where it gets interesting.

If we apply the "prisoners' dilemma" to a game of defensive armament, the analysis yields a very different result. Check this out:

The goal of each nation is still to maximize its national security.   Each nation has two basic choices once the ABM Treaty is signed:

1.   Don't build shield   (cooperate with ABM Treaty)
2.   Build shield (compete)

While deliberating, the U.S. asks itself what choice would be in its best interest in each possible scenario:

Scenario A - Russia Builds Missile Defence Shield

(1) U.S. does not build shield: Russia = safe and powerful, U.S. = at risk and weak.
(2) U.S. builds shield: Russia and U.S. = safe.

Conclusion:   If Russia reneges on its commitment and builds a shield, the best choice for the U.S. is clearly to also build a shield.

Scenario B - Russia Does Not Build Shield

(1) U.S. does not build shield: Russia and U.S. = at risk.
(2) U.S. builds shield: Russia = at risk and weak, U.S. = safe and powerful.

Conclusion:   If Russia upholds its commitment and does not build the shield, the best choice for the U.S. remains to build the shield, since its goal is to maximize its security.

The results from this analysis demonstrate how, regardless of Russia's choice, the rational and best choice for the U.S. when considering its options is to build the shield.   Of course, Russia conducts a similar analysis and reaches the same conclusion.   In the end, both nations choose to build shields and the ABM treaty falls apart, only this time, both nations are safer than they would be if they upheld the treaty!

In the defensive armament game, the dominant strategy, i.e. the strategy that is best for a player regardless of the strategies chosen by other players, leads to an optimal result!!!   :o

CAVEAT:   This only holds if other countries choose to respond to the U.S. defensive armament with their own defensive armament, rather than with offensive armament.   One last quick game shows that responding with a defensive armament strategy is in fact the rational and best choice if the goal is to maximize national security:

Each nation has two basic choices:

1.   Offensive Armament
2.   Defensive Armament


While deliberating, the U.S. asks itself what choice would be in its best interest in each possible scenario:

Scenario A - Russia Responds with Offensive Armament

(1) U.S. Goes Offensive:   Russia and U.S. = at risk
(2) U.S. Stays Defensive: Russia and U.S. = at risk

Conclusion:   If Russia responds with Offensive Armament, the U.S. has no incentive to change its strategy, as neither strategy has an advantage over the other.

Scenario B - Russia Responds with Defensive Armament

(1) U.S. Goes Offensive:   Russia and U.S. = at risk
(2) U.S. Stays Defensive: Russia and U.S. = safe

Conclusion:   If Russia responds with Defensive Armament, the best choice for the U.S. if to stick with Defensive Armament, since its goal is to maximize its security.

The results from this analysis demonstrate how, regardless of Russia's choice, the rational and best choice for the U.S. when considering its options is to stay the course with its defensive strategy and build the BMD shield.   Of course, Russia should conduct this same analysis and come to the conclusion that responding to the U.S. lead with a defensive strategy of its own is the rational and best choice to maximize its national security. This also applies to China, Japan, Israel, European nations, and anybody else who can afford to play.


I just came up with this theory "on the fly", so feel free to tare the argument apart, it's not like it's my life's work or anything.

Take care,
RDA
 
Theory seems fancy, but I don't get how you are correlating a defence system that can knock down a few missiles to "safe and powerful" against Russia's inventory of a couple thousand warheads with various delivery systems.
 
Infanteer said:
Theory seems fancy, but I don't get how you are correlating a defence system that can knock down a few missiles to "safe and powerful" against Russia's inventory of a couple thousand warheads with various delivery systems.

I completely agree with you, the current system is far from being a sophisticated defence system.  For the strategic designers though, it is only a pilot project for a much grander future capability.  They've learned that they have to break it up into small bite size pieces in order to get political approval for the project.

The whole game theory idea I presented is intended more as an argument in support of the concept of defensive armament as a sound strategy, with the goal of reaching a safer state of MAD-ness, i.e. safer from "Rogue" states.
 
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