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Rust hampers latest used sub

Hmmmm sorry guys but if its between those that have no clue about what subs do and those submariners that are working on them right now who still have faith in them, I have yet to hear one complain about the fire control system (told it would easily blow my ship out of the water). I think too many of you are listening to the nay sayers and not the people who are qualified on the Upholders. So no offence but your opinions don't hold much weight compared to those that use them.
 
Ex-dragoon.......point taken and agreed with.
I'd be very interested in hearing frank,honest opinions and thoughts  from some of those crew,officers and enlisted men who have actually sailed on the boats in question. Unfortunately hasn't happened yet... :(
Howeve...nobody can deny that things are way way beyond schedule as originally laid out.
Cheers
Gene
 
Oh that goes without saying Gene, no one is happy with the delays and the ongoing problems, it goes hand in hand with what i mentioned earlier about leaving your car in your back yard for so long and then trying to reactivate it. hobbyists spend years doing this! Is it a good thing with the Vic's hell no but we can't afford to give up on another capability.  The people I talk to can see beyond that, which all that matters to them and me.
 
Ex......have you had any discussions with CF crew who actually have sailed, surfaced and submerged in the boats over a period of days? Being a civilian in Montreal, I haven't had the opportunity to have informal, off the record discussions with such crew....ergo I'm left to my own devices to formulate an opinion. I'm fully aware that my opinion counts for nothing....and I don't fool myself that it has more merit than anybody elses' here but until somebody can give me real reasons to change my opinion, such as crew who have dealt with the subs, under way, then I'll stick to my guns. My central opinion is that we(the people and government of Canada) did not do the best we could for our naval personel in the matter of our subs.
Cheers
Gene
 
Ex......have you had any discussions with CF crew who actually have sailed, surfaced and submerged in the boats over a period of days?
Well thats the whole reason for my support of the subs is based upon what friends and coworkers have said about them.

but until somebody can give me real reasons to change my opinion, such as crew who have dealt with the subs, under way, then I'll stick to my guns.
I guess naval experience counts for ver y little as well as the opinions of the personnel I have indicated above. I know some know of this forum and its my hopes those that have sailed will stop by and list the pros and cons of the Vics but until then I am their lone uniformed advocate here.

My central opinion is that we(the people and government of Canada) did not do the best we could for our naval personel in the matter of our subs.
I agree there, I would have liked to see us go German. If we let the Vics go by the way of the Leopard have we accomplished anything for the CF? We have but only in the sense that we made it weaker and less able to do its job.
 
Lance Wiebe said:
Yes, they are simply training aids.   For ourselves, and our allies for sure, but still training aids.

Submarines have one purpose in life, and that is to sink other ships.  

According to whom?

Aside from the "war movies" in which secret agents are put ashore on hostile territory by sub, is there also not an advantage to having submersible vessels in order to maintain soveriegnty over Canadian waters?  Not necessarily by tracking those pesky turbot farmers, but simply being able to establish a presence in Canadian waters at will?
 
I guess naval experience counts for ver y little as well as the opinions of the personnel I have indicated above. I know some know of this forum and its my hopes those that have sailed will stop by and list the pros and cons of the Vics but until then I am their lone uniformed advocate here.

Ex...sorry if I gave the impression that I didn't accept your opinion  as counting...that wasn't my intent at all..I wasn't aware you were uniformed or had actually spoken to people who had hands-on experience with the subs...if any offense was taken I do apologize.

I agree there, I would have liked to see us go German. If we let the Vics go by the way of the Leopard have we accomplished anything for the CF? We have but only in the sense that we made it weaker and less able to do its job.

Ex....I'm not advocateing letting the subs go the way of the Leopard, never did advocate that....we have them ...use them. i said earlier on in this thread we should have gone with German.  BTW.....I think the idea of getting rid of the Tank force is a mistake but I guess thats another thread.
Finally maybe now is were I should make myself very clear about my feelings towards our Forces.......I'd probably be considered a Leftie on social issues by most people...but were the military is concerned I'm very pro. I have great respect for our uniformed people,the forces and their history.  And I want the best equipment for our forces...that'll allow them to do their jobs, and keep them alive.
 
Fuel Cell Submarine â Å“U 33â ? Launched at HDW
 
 
(Source: HDW; issued Sept.13, 2004)
 
 
By the name of â Å“U 33â ?, today Jutta Doenitz christened one of the most modern non-nuclear submarines in the world from Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW) in Kiel. The Class 212 A submarine is intended for service in the German Navy, and is the third of four submarines, which are currently being built at HDW and at the Nordseewerke in Emden. After an extensive period of sea trials, it is expected that â Å“U 33â ? will enter service on 31 January 2006. 

The characteristic feature of the new submarine Class 212, which has been developed by HDW, is an atmospheric air-independent propulsion system based on the hydrogen fuel cell. HDW is thus the first company in the world to produce a production-ready fuel-cell propulsion system. The fuel cell, which produces electricity from hydrogen and oxygen, enables the new class of submarine to cruise submerged for weeks at a time. Conventional diesel-electric submarines have exhausted their batteries after about two days' submerged cruising. In addition, the fuel cell generates no noise and no exhaust heat. It is thus virtually impossible to fix the submarine's position. 

The further development of position-finding technology and the increasing number of submarine-hunting methods, together with the extended field of deployment, necessitated the development of the new Class A generation of submarines. The extremely favorable signatures, the fuel-cell propulsion system and the position-finding and weapons technology will ensure that the new type of submarines will be successful in every conceivable field of operations. At the same time, the design of the vessel is characterized by a high degree of availability and low maintenance costs. 

In the speech he made at the christening, HDW Board member Walter Freitag pointed out that the very early decision to use the fuel cell in submarine construction had laid the foundations for HDW's technological market leadership. 

The development of the fuel cell propulsion system has produced a series of subsequent orders for HDW. Thus, HDW has received orders for seven submarines of the export version Class 214 submarine, of which four vessels are for the Greek Navy and three other vessels for the Korean Navy. The Italian Navy has also followed the example of the German Navy with two Class 212 A submarines, which are being built at Fincantieri. The Portuguese Navy has signed a contract to have three of its Class 209 submarines modernized with a fuel-cell propulsion system. Eventually, the Greek Navy will have 3 of its Class 209 submarines modernized with a fuel cell propulsion system. Thus, the German technology of the atmospheric air-independent submarine propulsion system is meanwhile being used by five Navies. 

Thus, the German technology of the atmospheric air-independent submarine propulsion system is meanwhile being used by five Navies. 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34

Thought this might be interesting grist for the mill. 

IIRC, between the time the Nukes were backburnered permanently and the time the Vics were purchased there was some talk of converting them to the type of vessels described above using Ballard fuel cell technology.  At the time Ballard had already done some work on submerged systems for the Navy.

Now I don't know if the technology was bad, if it needed refining or if there just wasn't the money available for the development but if it was either of the latter two cases it appears that we
may have done it to ourselves again.  Just llike the Arrow, the Bras d'Or and a number of other projects.

IMHO there would have been a good application for Federal research and development funds outside of the DND envelope.  End state could have been Canada leading the world in a technology. 

Instead it appears that we may have gone from leading the field to running along in the rear of the pack trying to decide whether or not to buy German instead or generate a "Me-Too" system either by allying with the Germans to try to learn from their mistakes.  Alternately we might end up ignoring the Germans and try to do the "All-Canadian" solution, spend more time and money, make our own mistakes. 

The question then becomes do we have the patience and the will-power to create a viable product that can compete on the world  stage by out-performing the competition.  And would the Canadian government allow us to sell them overseas anyway?

In any event the AIP Fuel Cell sub would give us the opportunity to finally contest our claim over the Northwest Passage.

Incidentally, consider Fuel Cell UUVs - autonomous mine/torpedo/detectors, communicating with VLF radios, lying quietly on the bottom of the Passage, relocating autonomously or on command, investigating and reporting on movement and noise,  capable of "direct action" operating under the control of one of three National control centres (Esquimalt, Halifax, Ottawa) or OPConned to a Manned AIP sub.

And now to sleep, perchance to dream..................

 
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