SAR Response Under the Gun Again

[OldSolduer]

The facts don't matter to The Fifth Estate.

The fact that the weather was crap where the kid was doesn't matter to The Fifth Estate.

They don't seem to "get it" that by launching a SAR mission in this particular case that the lives of aircrew and SAR techs may have been lost in the attempt, thereby causing the CF to launch another SAR mission or worse.

All that matters to The Fifth Estate is "DND Bad"

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Jim: We all know unfortunately that  The Fifth Estate is just yellow journalism masquerading as legitimate under the aura of the CBC.

My real question here is: Why are they picking on the Gardam's?  Yes, the Ontario based Dr. Gardam that is interviewed in their other big topic - hospital cleaning scandal!!! - is Admiral Gardam's brother !

I mean what are the chances of both brothers being seen in the same newscast of the National and then the same episode of the Fifth Estate? They must be picking on them.

 

[OldSolduer]

You know, maybe DND et al should stand up to The Fifth Estate.

Tell the public the facts. Lay it on the line.

Of course the tin foil hat crowd would cry "Conspiracy!! Cover up!!" :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Most Canadians are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

 

[The Bread Guy]

You know, maybe DND et al should stand up to The Fifth Estate.

Tell the public the facts. Lay it on the line.

Of course the tin foil hat crowd would cry "Conspiracy!! Cover up!!" :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Most Canadians are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

I know of people who've spent, say, 90 minutes speaking to reporters, and see/hear/read 12 seconds of that talk on mainstream media.  Even if all was laid on the line, no guarantees it would make it to media consumers' ears/eyes.  Sigh....

 

[aesop081]

Did it again...started reading the CBC comments. :

My favourite so far his how the DND helicopter manager should be fired. Awesome.

My favorite reader comment was the one where some guy said that the Hercs were unavailable because of the CFB Greenwood winter carnival...........

 

[Pat in Halifax]

The first thing the Press should take into account is the fact that the CF (all of us) is a cross-section of society – we ALL make mistakes!! FFS people!!!. That said, I would love to see 1000 SAR Techs and corresponding aircraft in the north (I have a niece in Churchill) but we (meaning the voting public) have determined that this is not economically feasible.
I cannot imagine what the family of this young boy is going through and I sympathize with them but WE cannot be everywhere ALL the time as much as we wish we could. I recall my early days in the Navy. We had rescued a couple US swordfishermen south of Greenland. I don`t know if all of you know how you fish for swordfish but lets say that this 40-something year old man was not going to survive after taking a `hook` to the groin that came out on his left shoulder. All he kept saying was `Please don`t let me die alone`. Far from bragging, I was `voluntold` to stay by his side. After about 9 hours, the man passed. No, I didn’t save someone, but until my own last days, I will remember forever this 9 hours as if it happened yesterday – but there was NOTHING I could do- And, oh, the family didn`t sue the Navy.

 

[blacktriangle]

Most Canadians are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.

A large percentage of Canadians couldn't even function if they didn't have access to Facebook or their Iphones. I think you give the average person too much credit.

The average person doesn't really care to know about the CF/DND. Can you blame them? People have lives to live. They are busy. It's much easier to see a sound bite on the news and base your opinion off that. Unless that person has a specific interest in defence or similar topics, they probably have no idea what we really do.

People don't care.

 

[Teeps74]

Once upon a time, I used to trust the CBC as a credible news agency. Used to.

Their partisan antics, twisting of context, and constant witch hunts have worn on me. Next time a CBC reporter tries to engage me, he/she will get a "No thank you".

 

[Rifleman62]

DND will NOT win anything. The media and the media party has already made up it's mind.

Why has DND not purchased replacement SAR aircraft after years of dicking around? Why buy 65 F-35's when you could purchase a 6500 SAR aircraft?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Why has DND not purchased replacement SAR aircraft after years of dicking around? Why buy 65 F-35's when you could purchase a 6500 SAR aircraft?

Are you trying to provide ammunition to the enemy?

Shame on you!

 

[blacktriangle]

The military should trade it's tanks for snow plows. We can train tens of thousands of SAR Techs that can stand on every corner in case something happens. The Navy can then crash it's last few ships into the docks and carry on drinking.

Who's with me?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I've debated this a few times and say that first of all, this is a very unfortunate and sad event.  No one would disagree to this.

My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".

I don't go 'into the bush' anywhere without being able to spend 1 night, even places I've hiked many times.  Even during summertime, in NS.  As sad as it may be, the "swiss cheese" started long before this poor 14 year old boy left home.

Is the Fifth Estate also going to ask the parents, other agencies involved (civie-SAR) "what could YOU have done better?".  If not, then it will stand, IMO, as the witch-hunt "we need to point a finger at someone" story it is seemingly starting off as. 

Regardless of all that crap, a 14 year old boy's life was cut short, and I think all parties involved should be able to look at their part and ask "what could we have done better or different" in an effort to make sure it doesn't happen again.  But that should happen without the 'witchhunt'. 

:2c:

 

[blacktriangle]

Excellent post, EITS.

 

[Teeps74]

Hear hear! Well said EITS! Heaven forbid that we are all held accountable for our actions.

 

[ballz]

My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".

I don't go 'into the bush' anywhere without being able to spend 1 night, even places I've hiked many times.  Even during summertime, in NS.  As sad as it may be, the "swiss cheese" started long before this poor 14 year old boy left home.

I'm won't beat around the bush with the race/indian thing. IMO, if this were a white kid, with white parents, in the rest of Canada, the parents would probably be charged and convicted with some form of criminal negligence, and they'd have probably earned it. That kid was still 10km from home by the time his machine got stuck (don't know how far the journey actually was)... Just how far out into the middle of nowhere, in one of the most extreme environments on the planet, does a First Nations kid have to go alone and unprepared, before it's unacceptable?

Some of the bleeding hearts out there will chastise you (us) for even suggesting that the parents could have prevented this though.

You're 100% right about the swiss cheese, as John 'Lofty' Wiseman says, survival situations don't happen because of one mistake, they happen because of a chain of mistakes, and if one of those mistakes wasn't made (aka bringing a cell phone / radio or having a tire repair kit, etc) then the chain is broken and a survival situation never happens.

Is the Fifth Estate also going to ask the parents, other agencies involved (civie-SAR) "what could YOU have done better?".  If not, then it will stand, IMO, as the witch-hunt "we need to point a finger at someone" story it is seemingly starting off as. 

If I can stomach watching the whole thing I'll let you know. Chances are though, judging by the preview I saw, I won't be able to. It had witch-hunt written all over it.

 

[OldSolduer]

My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".

:2c:

They should be held accountable for allowing a 14 year old operate a snowmobile. IIRC, the law here in Manitoba is 16 with a license to operate a ATV or snowmobile. I am not sure of the law in Newfoundland.

I was not aware this boy was aboriginal.

 

[Jimmy_D]

For ATV in Atlantic Provinces. Age to operate is 16, anything under must be on own property with Adult supervision. Not sure on licensing I know Nova Scotia you need a course now luckily I'm Grandfathered and don't need one.

 

[ballz]

In NL you're allowed to drive a snowmobile alone at 13 and up, according to #10 and #11 here

http://www.nlsf.org/legal.html

That is consistent to the other things I've read as well.

 

[Jimmy_D]

 
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NLIS 1
May 17, 2005
(Government Services)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Government introduces safety measures for ATVs

After consulting with ATV user groups and health professionals on measures to improve safety around the use of ATVs, Government Services Minister Dianne Whalen announced today that government is increasing the minimum age to operate an adult-sized ATV in the province to 16 years in an attempt to reduce the number of injuries involving children and prevent the loss of life.



More at link:  http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/gs/0517n01.htm

 

[Eye In The Sky]

That kid was still 10km from home by the time his machine got stuck (don't know how far the journey actually was)... Just how far out into the middle of nowhere, in one of the most extreme environments on the planet, does a kid have to go alone and unprepared, before it's unacceptable?

I amended the quote slightly to keep it to what I personally see as the most relevant part of the issue, IMO.  When I read thru the info on it I've seen, which granted isn't very much compared to what is likely out there, the word 'complacency' comes to my mind.  How many times has this youngster ventured out on his own, to go to his grandparents place on ski-do alone?  If it was frequently/often/routinely, I would say his entire immediate family AND the boy himself 'got used to it'.  You, thru repetition of action with no adverse consequences, start to get complacent.  The 'swiss cheese' starts and a series of very unfortunate events line up the way no one wants them to.  The *real* dangers become routine, and lose the attention they deserve.

My wife sometimes used to laugh at me for what kit I would take with me on a summer's day hike on a coastal part of NS.  Or some place we'd been before.  Then, a 19 year old singer was killed on the Skyline Trail in CB.  Not so much laughing.  I go prepared not only for OUR welfare, but also for the welfare of the person/people we might happen across who DON'T know any better and have gotten into a situation.

"Its better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it". 

Some of the bleeding hearts out there will chastise you (us) for even suggesting that the parents could have prevented this though.

Ya, thats expected in the way of todays society in this great country we call Canada. 

I understand the loved ones of the dead young boy to react emtionally, to blame "anyone!  whoever!" in their grief...The Fifth Estate, if they are going to tell the story, should be professional enough to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". 

Unfortunately, 'truth' doesn't always get people to watch a broadcast...