Seeking an excuse to spend Defence $$ on a Bombardier plane

[Zoomie]

Maybe it's time we get out of the sub-hunting business?  The SGOD is being used operationally quite extensively this past decade.  No war-torps dropped - plenty of targets lased (or whatever).

Retire the four-engine nightmare - get some sleek (fast) Global Express-type - bingo bango - excellent Surveillance machine for all threat aspects.  IMHO, if we're not going to play with the big-boys and be serious about LRP (aka P-8 subkiller platform) - don't bother.  Do a threat estimate - figure out the chances of ever having to kill a sub - focus on the surface threat (from far far away).

 

[MarkOttawa]

There's also an Israeli Bombardier bizjet project:
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/mark-collins-another-proposal-for-bombardier-based-jet-maritime-patrol-aircraft/

Another Proposal for Bombardier-Based Jet Maritime Patrol Aircraft
...

...

But all such military projects won't provide anywhere near enough money (and certainly not in time) to avoid a federal bail-out (note "Comments"):
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/02/15/mark-collins-want-to-bet-against-feds-bailing-out-bombardier/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Tac Hel has had that since the 1990s.

LOL for both of you!!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Certainly not the first time. When Chretien's son in law, Andre Desmarais, the son of Paul Desmarais, of Power Corporation had a couple of extra Challengers sitting around that he couldn't flog, he called his father-in-law. Chretien bought them, untendered, as VIP jets for the CAF.

Chretien, amongst others (seen below) has strong, familial ties to Power Corp (Bombardier). The current PM's father Pierre, was a lawyer for Power Corp, who's election was paid for by Desmarais, after receiving grants from the government.

It may be conjecture, but the tie of our most powerful politicians, many ex PMs, to the Desmarais' and Power Corp (Bombardier) are more than a bit disconcerting.

I honestly believe, that as long as the status quo exists, Bombardier will never find themselves in any kind of bind that can't be fixed by connections in government and the Canadian taxpayers largesse.

http://primetimecrime.com/contributing/2005/20050120Gray.htm

Canadian Legacy:
The familial and financial ins and outs of Canadian politics.

By Ann Jane Gray

Many puzzled Canadians have watched while Jean Chretien pursued an anti-American, pro-Saddam Hussein policy that is not in the best interests of Canada.  If Hussein had managed to retain power, Jean Chretien's family stood to make millions. We believe that much can be explained by examining the political and familial connections of the Prime Minister.
First it is necessary to understand that some federal (and provincial) politicians of all stripes belong to an exclusive club. Below you will read about the cast of characters and some of the known leading roles:
John Rae was the leading strategist for Jean Chretien's election campaign. He was formerly the Executive vice-president of Power Corp. He is the brother of Bob Rae, the former NDP premier of Ontario.

Bob Rae, while Premier of Ontario, appointed Maurice Strong as chairman of Ontario Hydro. The past CEO of Paul Desmarais' Power Corporation, Strong was appointed to the UN as a senior environmental adviser to the UN secretary-general and Chairman of the Earth Council. His area of responsibility was the Kyoto Accord.

Paul Martin, formerly the Finance Minister under the current regime is considered a shoo in for Prime Minister as Jean Chretien exits the scene in February of 2004. Martin was previously on the board of Power Corp and formerly on the board of Connaught Laboratories. Allegations have been made of Connaught's implication in the tainted blood scandal. Martin and a partner purchased Canada Steamship Lines from Paul Desmarais of Power Corp at extremely favorable terms. Martin later bought the partner out. What obligations does Martin owe to Power Corporation interests once he becomes Prime Minister? Martin registered many of his vessels out of the country in third world registries, thus evading Canadian income taxes. Third world crews working in third world conditions crew his third world registry ships. Canadians must question whether the morality of Martin's evading Canadian income taxes while Finance Minister is a matter of concern.

Jean Chretien's daughter France is married to Andre Desmarais, the son of Paul Desmarais, of Power Corporation. Andre is on the board of multinational communications conglomerate Vivendi.  He runs Power Corporation. (estimated annual revenues $18-billion)
According to Paul Jackson of the Calgary Sun, in Le Monde, December 1, 1994, Jean Chretien, while in France talked about how French-Canadians had been "humiliated"  by the English and how today they see themselves as "martyrs." He boasted he was getting his own revenge and we quote: "For example, I have just appointed an Acadian to the office of governor general. So the governor general is a francophone. The same is true, among others, of the prime minister, the Speaker of the House of Commons, the Speaker of the Senate, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the Minister of Finance."

Many Canadians will remember Jean Chretien's frequent trips to China. Andre Desmarais sits on the board of Peoples' Republic of China's China International Trust and Investment Corporation. This is considered to be the investment arm of the Chinese military. Through Project Sidewinder, the RCMP tried to investigate the links between the Prime Minister of Canada, Desmarais and China. and potential undue influence on Canadian politicians.  For more information on the China connection read the WatchDog article "Jean Chretien and the Sidewinder Report."

Jean Chretien supported the powerful third world bloc of the UN. He supported France, Germany and Russia whose oil and debt interests in Iraq apparently override any human rights violation or concerns. He could have another more immediate reason.  According to Diane Francis of the National Post, Paris-based TotalFinaElf's biggest shareholder is Paul Desmarais Sr. She also states in a recent article, "Canada's stance is all the more unacceptable because it aligns us with such soiled nations as France, Germany and Russia which made billions of dollars with Saddam Hussein, ran interference for him diplomatically and signed huge future oil contracts with his deposed regime." --End of quote. Paul Desmarais Jr. sits on the board of TotalFinaElf.

Totalfinael apparently now has a large share of the major oilsands project in Alberta. The Alberta Oilsands could be one of the two largest relatively untapped oil reserves in the world. It will not be in France's interests to have Alberta secede to become a new independent nation or to join with the United States.

So it seems apparent the the financial oil interests of Jean Chretien's family had a direct bearing on the stance Canada took in the recent liberation of Iraq.

Mitchell Sharp, while Finance Minister introduced Jean Chretien to politics. When Chretien became Prime Minister, Mitchell Sharpe was appointed as the famous dollar a year advisor to Chretien. Since 1981, Sharpe has been vice-Chairman of North American of the Trilateral Commission.

Daniel Johnson formerly Liberal leader in Quebec is credited for having delivered much federal spending to the Quebec based Power Corporation.

Brian Mulroney, the Conservative ex-Prime Minister is now on a dozen boards in corporate offices including some Power Corporation and Quebecor World. He is a lawyer and lobbyist for Power Corporation. Power Corp and Ontario Hydro and Hydro Quebec formed a Hong Kong-based Asian Group Inc. to assist China in developing its energy potential.
Sources claim Power Corp's legal interests in Asia are reportedly handled by a Hong Kong branch of Mulroney's Montreal law firm, Ogilvy Renault.

While in office, Pierre Trudeau's government (Prime Minister and a former Power Corp. lawyer) signed over millions to Power Corporation under federal grant programs. Desmarais was credited with funding his election campaign.

Power Corporation began as a broken down bus line in Ontario. He moved his company to Quebec where he purchased another bus line in Quebec City. Able to get the ear of government, Desmarais went from success to success. Today Power Corporation is a multi-national company with many subsidiaries, over-extended not surprisingly as government bailouts have always been there. Since the first of the year Bombardier has received $1.5 billion in loans for its planes. These low-interest loans made to countries such as Spain have allowed them to buy airplanes, thus enabling this troubled industry to stay afloat.

So we now have an elite club of Conservatives, (Mulroney) Liberals (Trudeau and Chretien) and the NDP (Bob Rae) all connected to Paul Desmarais and Power Corporation.

<snip>

Mr Chretien's insistence on not getting involved in the Iraq makes more sense, given PetroFina's  (Petro Canada\ Power Corp) involvement with Saddam's oil contracts.

More on Chretien's Challenger buy.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/932639/

"Safety concerns behind $100-million jet purchase"

OTTAWA - The government spent $100 million on new luxury jets because the old ones are no longer safe, the prime minister said Tuesday.

"Many times, I've been involved in some urgent landings with the one we have at this moment – many times," Jean Chrétien said.

But documents uncovered in access to information requests point only to a single case in which the prime minister's jet was involved in a serious situation. That was in June 2001, when it made an emergency landing in Stockholm.

The Challenger carrying Chrétien from a meeting with European Union leaders turned around 15 minutes after taking off from the Swedish city. The cabin pressure had suddenly dropped.

The Defence Department considered it an isolated incident, and said at the time the prime minister was never in any danger

Public Works Minister Ralph Goodale said on Tuesday the incident probably influenced the decision in March of this year to place a rush order for two new Challengers from Montreal-based Bombardier Inc. The order came to a total of more than $100 million.

"When those circumstances happen, it is not a pleasant experience, and therefore, safety considerations are no doubt part of the decision," he said.

The order was placed after senior officers in the Department of National Defence said the older jets were fine.

"Given that there were no identifiable problems or trends with this fleet … it is recommended that remedial action, such as fleet modernization or replacement is not warranted at this time," a report produced last winter said.

Opposition MPs have questioned the ethics of granting the large contract without a public tendering process, and wondered why the government can find money quickly for Challenger jets but can't replace aging military equipment such as the navy's Sea King helicopters.

But the prime minister continues to insist purchasing the two jets was not a waste of taxpayers' money.

"We needed them," Chrétien said. "And it was decided by the administration to have jets for the operation of the government."

 

[McG]

If the government wants to disguise a bail-out as a defence contract, maybe invest in the product that Bombardier is trying to get to market - buy six CS300 to replace the five Polaris (which were built in the late 80s).

But, don't use defence dollars for this.  Make a specific allotment in the budget from Parlaiment for this.

 

[Old Sweat]

Remember the Iltis!  :facepalm:

 

[Bearpaw]

I think EIS is on the right track for the future MPA/LRPA for Canada.  The SC-130J is based on a solid design; the proposed performance is similar to the Auroras AND it has the capacity for air refueling.  This idea should be thoroughly explored.

We might consider adding a large AESA radar to it as well.

Bearpaw

 

[Kirkhill]

If the government wants to disguise a bail-out as a defence contract, maybe invest in the product that Bombardier is trying to get to market - buy six CS300 to replace the five Polaris (which were built in the late 80s).

But, don't use defence dollars for this.  Make a specific allotment in the budget from Parlaiment for this.

How about they find new dollars to buy Canadian made kit and then give it to you to find something to do with it?  How do you think the Brits ended up with Bedford trucks?

 

[winnipegoo7]

How about they find new dollars to buy Canadian made kit and then give it to you to find something to do with it?  How do you think the Brits ended up with Bedford trucks?

And here I though that the point of defence procurement was to fulfill a defence necessity.

 

[Kirkhill]

And here I though that the point of defence procurement was to fulfill a defence necessity.

That's just barmy.

 

[George Wallace]

Remember the Iltis!  :facepalm:

Remember the MLVW!  :facepalm:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

And here I though that the point of defence procurement was to fulfill a defence necessity.

Well, that would be news to many people, particularly in the US where defence spending's main purpose often appears to be to shore senators re-election prospects.  [

 

[Kirkhill]

Remember the MLVW!  :facepalm:

Oh go for broke!

Iltis.  LSVW. MLVW. HLVW.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

All of them were make work projects. None of the factories survived.

 

[George Wallace]

The HLVW was assembled, not really manufactured, in Kingston by UTDC.  [Edit....Missed this:  The LSVW was a White Star product].......Rest were Bombardier products.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Maybe it's time we get out of the sub-hunting business?  The SGOD is being used operationally quite extensively this past decade.  No war-torps dropped - plenty of targets lased (or whatever).

Retire the four-engine nightmare - get some sleek (fast) Global Express-type - bingo bango - excellent Surveillance machine for all threat aspects.  IMHO, if we're not going to play with the big-boys and be serious about LRP (aka P-8 subkiller platform) - don't bother.  Do a threat estimate - figure out the chances of ever having to kill a sub - focus on the surface threat (from far far away).

Yes, no war torps have been dropped, but we have been busy conducting Ops (other than overland missions..).  The SGOD is the best ASW platform that NATO has at its disposal (by far).  Sure the P8 has the fancy new airframe, but there is no comparison when you look at the sensor suite.

I am shocked that the C-Series MPA hasn't been mentioned.  Not that I think it's a great idea, but it isn't any worse than starting a ship building industry from scratch.   

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I was waiting for someone to suggest that we cut a bomb bay into a C series and begin mounting sensors.

I mean- how hard could that be? (That is rhetorical- nothing is impossible, if you bring a big enough cheque book).

I am actually waiting to see if the C300 gets mentioned as a possible replace for our Polaris.

Nothing says "Canada" like the PM flying around in one of those. Paint it grey. Cut cargo doors in the side and plumb them for the tanker option- what is not to love?

 

[McG]

Don't know if the site is reliable, but here is a fun (and probably too simple) comparison:
http://planes.axlegeeks.com/compare/300-474/Bombardier-CS300-vs-Airbus-A310

 

[a_majoor]

The entire Liberal platform was "vote for us so we can give taxpayer dollars to our cronies and keep the Laurentian Elites in power for another generation", so funding for Bombardier regardless of the "product" is rally a no brainer.

Gerald Butts and Co. are all about farming and milking taxpayers.

 

[Sub_Guy]

We could keep the existing sensor suite from the CP-140. 

 

[runormal]

This just in:

http://globalnews.ca/news/2522382/air-canada-to-buy-up-to-75-bombardier-cs300-aircraft/

February 17, 2016 6:23 am
Air Canada to buy up to 75 Bombardier CS300 aircraft

MONTREAL – Air Canada has signed a letter of intent to purchase 45 of Bombardier’s CS300 aircraft with options for an additional 30 planes.

Based on the list price of the CS300, Bombardier says a firm order would be worth about $3.8 billion.

Once a firm purchase agreement is in place, Bombardier says Air Canada will become the first mainline, international North America-based carrier for the C Series family of aircraft. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2019.

READ MORE: Bombardier to cut its workforce by 7,000 positions over 2 years

With this agreement, Bombardier says it now has orders and commitments for a total of 678 C Series planes.

The agreement with Air Canada was announced by Bombardier at the same time it said it would cut its workforce by 7,000 positions over two years, including 2,000 contractors.

The job losses will be partly offset by hiring in certain areas, including the C Series project.