Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish

[OldSolduer]

We teach drill for some very basic reasons:

Adherence to orders.....intantaneous reaction to orders.

Respect for superiors

Obedience.

There was a spiel we used to tell the recruits. I can't recall it offhand but it covered the above points.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Does parade drill improve the combat effectiveness of soldiers on the ground, sailors on a ship or pilots and their aircrew getting planes in the air?

Would that not depend on the attitudes of the chains of command and how they promote the usefulness of drill as an exercise in military discipline, team work and unit pride.

Are those not useful attributes which can be developed in a small way at little cost. No-one is proposing endless days on the parade square and canceling range training to do it.

 

[Snaketnk]

Are those not useful attributes which can be developed in a small way at little cost. No-one is proposing endless days on the parade square and canceling range training to do it.

No-one may be promoting it, but it's happened a frighteningly high number of times in my short career. Drill practice is a thing that everyone has to drop everything to do, while going to the range is a "if nothing else comes up" thing.

I'll admit I'm a little disgruntled, but there's been a significant spike in releases and OTs in the people I know and I think it's for a reason.

 

[Infanteer]

We teach drill for some very basic reasons:

Adherence to orders.....intantaneous reaction to orders.

Respect for superiors

Obedience.

Are you really trying to convince me that my subordinates follow my orders because some PO in St Jean broke down the movement of swinging your arms when you walk?

 

[quadrapiper]

The question becomes how much is just enough so that when a Guard of Honour or  funeral party or even a change of command parade is to be conducted, officers and soldiers/sailors/airmen on parade look like they know what they are doing and not like they haven't formed up since graduating from trades training?

A few thoughts on drill instruction and competency... I'm not going to touch the "role of drill and ceremonial in today's CF" thing, except to say that I can think of no armed force that conducts or conducted operations involving more than company-on-company fights, or technology, strategy, or tactics beyond contemporary banditry, without some sort of shared, non-mission-relevant ceremonial activities, whether it be gathering for a blessing or sacrifice, a formal oath-taking to a commander, or the damned near universal act of tramping about one's home town in whatever passes for No. 1 kit.

Changes of command, unit birthdays, Remembrance Day (and the service- and regiment-specific commemorations) and community parades all have a certain predictability to them. A reasonable run-up to each, with perhaps six hours of drill over the course of a week (a drill-day right before the gig is a waste of time, after the first two or three hours), should maintain the unit's standard of drill to a sufficient level that, should something unexpected crop up, it is not necessary to either turn a blind eye to ham-handed drill, or to spend an unexpected three or four days re-teaching the 201.

As far as smaller events; guards of honour, funeral parties, and so on, where the entire unit is not required to do anything overly complicated, rotate sub-units through the role of having to provide personnel for ceremonial duties on a routine basis. Work up one month, deal with ceremonial tasks the next. Wouldn't take too much time, overall: cadets can be taught how to (badly) conduct basic rifle drill in two hours, well enough to get through Colours without committing any major gaffes, and the predictability might prevent some of the complaints on here regarding disruption of training, operational prep, or whatever.

 

[aesop081]

There was a spiel we used to tell the recruits.

Telling them that does not make it so.

Besides the fact that i do not consider parade drill a useful tool for teaching those things, teaching drill is not the issue. It is the pointless ceremonial afterwards that is the issue.

Would that not depend on the attitudes of the chains of command and how they promote the usefulness of drill as an exercise in military discipline, team work and unit pride.

How about we use training for the unit's primary function instead ?

That promotes discipline, teamwork and unit pride. Yes, i do remember reading that somewhere. I have certainly been more proud after finishing a demanding, exhausting exercise that i have been from doing any sort of parade.

canceling range training to do it.

I don't know wether to laugh or cry at that one. Laugh because you probably say that with a straight face or cry because it actualy happens.

 

[Infanteer]

A few thoughts on drill instruction and competency... I'm not going to touch the "role of drill and ceremonial in today's CF" thing, except to say that I can think of no armed force that conducts or conducted operations involving more than company-on-company fights, or technology, strategy, or tactics beyond contemporary banditry, without some sort of shared, non-mission-relevant ceremonial activities, whether it be gathering for a blessing or sacrifice, a formal oath-taking to a commander, or the damned near universal act of tramping about one's home town in whatever passes for No. 1 kit.

Changes of command, unit birthdays, Remembrance Day (and the service- and regiment-specific commemorations) and community parades all have a certain predictability to them. A reasonable run-up to each, with perhaps six hours of drill over the course of a week (a drill-day right before the gig is a waste of time, after the first two or three hours), should maintain the unit's standard of drill to a sufficient level that, should something unexpected crop up, it is not necessary to either turn a blind eye to ham-handed drill, or to spend an unexpected three or four days re-teaching the 201.

As far as smaller events; guards of honour, funeral parties, and so on, where the entire unit is not required to do anything overly complicated, rotate sub-units through the role of having to provide personnel for ceremonial duties on a routine basis. Work up one month, deal with ceremonial tasks the next. Wouldn't take too much time, overall: cadets can be taught how to (badly) conduct basic rifle drill in two hours, well enough to get through Colours without committing any major gaffes, and the predictability might prevent some of the complaints on here regarding disruption of training, operational prep, or whatever.

A good post, with much to agree with.

I can't help wonder if the Drill PAM is in need of an overhaul.  How much drill is required by today's CF to look good when formed up in public and give ceremonial events the dignity they deserve?  Would we be just as convincing if we did away with sword/rifle drill completely?

 

[OldSolduer]

A good post, with much to agree with.

I can't help wonder if the Drill PAM is in need of an overhaul.  How much drill is required by today's CF to look good when formed up in public and give ceremonial events the dignity they deserve?  Would we be just as convincing if we did away with sword/rifle drill completely?

I think quite the opposite. Ceremonial parades without arms (Army type here) IMO are useless and horrible to watch.

Drill is a cost effective way to instill obedience to orders to your troops. Its also a bloody good PR exercise that can get you some good press and 30 seconds on the local news. And even the Air Force does drill. Civilians who don't normally see troops are in awe of troops who perform well on parade. Those civilians are our bosses....they pay our wages, buy us our kit etc....and if they ain't happy.....
The Manual of Drill and Ceremonial is fine the way it is IMO.

 

[Michael OLeary]

How about we use training for the unit's primary function instead ?

Sure, once you explain how practicing to conduct section attacks gets troops ready to bury one of their comrades or stand on parade on Remembrance Day. Stop acting like the only choices are all drill all the time or all op training all the time. You're just coming across like someone who doesn't understand anything outside your own technical trade.

 

[Infanteer]

Drill is a cost effective way to instill obedience to orders to your troops.

How so?

I've heard this parroted about before, usually as the reason why drill is so important.  I'd challenge the claimant of this to prove it.  All the studies of men under fire that I've read haven't mentioned it.

 

[aesop081]

doesn't understand anything outside your own technical trade.

Yes, that must be the problem.

:

 

[OldSolduer]

Drill can be done just about anyplace and anytime. I'm not saying we need to do drill every day. Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders. That is why recruits learn drill. It also has the effect of teaching them some teamwork.
Its far cheaper than going to the field, arming them and yelling at them ad nauseum, which we doing during drill anyways. Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??

 

[aesop081]

Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders.

Yes, you said that several times already.

Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??

It is Thursday. I'm guessing drill hasn't helped you with keeping track of the days of the week  ;D

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes, you said that several times already.

It is Thursday. I'm guessing drill hasn't helped you with keeping track of the days of the week  ;D

Yes I have said it several times as it doesn't seem to be getting through ;D

I don't dispute that technical trades (ie Air/naval stuff) don't have the time to do drill like the Army. Nor should the Air Force be as good at drill. I don't want you to be. I want Air guys putting aircraft up to support the ground guys.

Thursday,,,,,hmmmmmOK why are we having this conversation on a Thursday night? Has to be ladies night somewhere.....

 

[Snaketnk]

Drill can be done just about anyplace and anytime. I'm not saying we need to do drill every day. Recruits need to learn drill to instill a sense of obedience and reaction to orders. That is why recruits learn drill. It also has the effect of teaching them some teamwork.
Its far cheaper than going to the field, arming them and yelling at them ad nauseum, which we doing during drill anyways. Why are we having this conversation on a Friday night??

I have a really hard time buying this. You make it sound as if Drill is the only reason people follow and react to orders. The reason I react to orders is because I understand that I'm a piece of a tool (section) that someone who makes more money than me is using -- in combat and in garrison.

You ever stop and think that recruits learn drill so that they can do drill during their career? Isn't that what they always say in the "you will use this..." part of the drill class? If Drill is the thing that's instilling obedience in soldiers than the rest of the system needs a serious overhaul.

I'm all for making sure you look good when you're paraded infront of the public - but the only time that's happened for me, at least, is on Rememberance Day (and I have no issues whatsoever practicing that particular parade to perfection...). The rest of my parades have been in private; in a drill hall or on a parade square very sheltered from the public eye. I often just feel like a decoration so the reviewing officer has something pretty to look at while he rolls his eyes at the endless barrage of speeches.

 

[medicineman]

How so?

I've heard this parroted about before, usually as the reason why drill is so important.  I'd challenge the claimant of this to prove it.  All the studies of men under fire that I've read haven't mentioned it.

I suppose I could draw on an anecdote from my grandfather, who was one of the last guys off the beach at Dunkirk...despite being bombed and strafed, troops were formed up, called to attention, turned and marched out into the water towards whatever vessel was designated to lift them out.  It kept a semblance of order and calm by relegating everything back to parade ground familiarity and making a very abnormal situation seem a little more normal.  Not saying it was a Trooping at Buckingham Palace or even unchaotic, but it helped get things done.

:2c:

MM

 

[aesop081]

I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.

 

[OldSolduer]

I have a really hard time buying this. You make it sound as if Drill is the only reason people follow and react to orders. The reason I react to orders is because I understand that I'm a piece of a tool (section) that someone who makes more money than me is using -- in combat and in garrison.

You ever stop and think that recruits learn drill so that they can do drill during their career? Isn't that what they always say in the "you will use this..." part of the drill class? If Drill is the thing that's instilling obedience in soldiers than the rest of the system needs a serious overhaul.

I'm all for making sure you look good when you're paraded infront of the public - but the only time that's happened for me, at least, is on Rememberance Day (and I have no issues whatsoever practicing that particular parade to perfection...). The rest of my parades have been in private; in a drill hall or on a parade square very sheltered from the public eye. I often just feel like a decoration so the reviewing officer has something pretty to look at while he rolls his eyes at the endless barrage of speeches.

You don't have to "buy" it. The value of drill hit home for me when I was an instructor in CFRS Cornwallis. Taking a bunch of civilians and within 90 minutes of starting from a zero knowledge, we can have them come to attention, stand at ease etc.
Try to teach them how to perform section attacks without learning drill first. And what are some of the first lessons in recruit school, after being kitted out etc?

I have stopped and thought. Drill is a tool to instill obedience....just one of many. And I've been on my share of parades as well, and cursed many of them.

 

[OldSolduer]

I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.

You know I fully agree with that.....but barking out the right words is essential on the mortar line as well. And they  understand what it is they have to do.

 

[aesop081]

Try to teach them how to perform section attacks without learning drill first.

Just like teaching people anything else. You explain what to do, you explain why it is done and then show them how to do it. If people understand why they do certain things, they will do it without question. Teaching section attacks is no different than teaching attack runs on the CP-140.

I don't "adance left turn" because the parade commander yelled it out. I "advance left turn" because i know this is the part where we need to face the crowd, the advance in review order is coming up.