Shotguns in the CF

[a_majoor]

Ideally there would be a lightweight, easy to use shaped charge kit that will make a good sized hole through the wall, disorientate and stun the occupants of the room without completely vaporizing them (hey, less than lethal!) which can be carried and used by the infantryman, so that an infantry section can penetrate and clear a bunch of rooms without needing engineer support, and I suppose they can also be used on doors as well..

It is called the 84mm HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose) round for the Carl-G; and it can blast a huge hole in a wall when set for "instantanious" (to allow dynamic entry) or penetrate most standard construction and detonate inside the room when set for "delay" (if you are in a big hurry and just need to kill them all). It also will put most APC and below class vehicles out of action, and certainly "ring the bells" of any tanker who gets hit by one.

Pre made "frame charges" can also be assembled by your local engineer section, in the simplest form it is a styrofoam sheet the size of the hole you want, with det cord or a cutting charge taped around the edge and usually a long pole to help you set it against the wall without exposure. Like all charges, it works a lot better if it is "tamped", but guys in a hurry usually dont carry a pile of sandbags and spend time stacking them on the "friendly" side of the frame charge.

Sadly, most of the other fun toys we carry are not very suitable for wall breaching, you will either get a tiny hole (M-72, 84mm HEAT, 25mm), or the explosion is unfocused although it might penetrate North American style drywall construction or tin "shantytown" walls (hand grenades, claymores).

P.S., Britney, did you know the Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun also had a bayonet lug?

 

[TCBF]

Wouldn't look at all out of place in Nanking, would it?

Tom

 

[Britney Spears]

It is called the 84mm HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose) round for the Carl-G; and it can blast a huge hole in a wall when set for "instantanious" (to allow dynamic entry) or penetrate most standard construction and detonate inside the room when set for "delay" (if you are in a big hurry and just need to kill them all). It also will put most APC and below class vehicles out of action, and certainly "ring the bells" of any tanker who gets hit by one.

Yes, for getting inside a building from the outside,  but for inside  bigger buildings or in confined spaces the backblast on the Carl  would render it  useless(or at least not useable safely) right? I suppose the problem would also exist for shaped charges too... I think some testing and evaluation is in order.

P.S., Britney, did you know the Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun also had a bayonet lug?

I was vaguely aware of it, and I had at one point considered purchasing one (well,a Chinese copy) for my personal collection,  but then again I never claimed to be an expert on WWI infantry weapons.....why do you ask?

 

[Britney Spears]

Simon Door Breaching Rifle Grenade

Now, I had written up a lengthy post speculating on how such a device might be adapted to make holes in walls, but since I've never even seen this thing in real life, I would be just talking out of my hat, so I won't bore you with speculation. Instead I shall solicite ideas from the audience.

 

[TCBF]

I think we need tom develop thermobaric rounds for our 84mm, and - if possible - 40mm.  The 105mm tk gun as well.  With an option on 60 and 81mm mortars.  Good house clearers.

Tom

 

[Britney Spears]

<a href=http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/archive/itf_multipurpose_cartridges.html>40mm FAE is already in use.</a>

Since the Russians have been using man portable shoulder launched thermobaric weapons for years, I don't imagine putting one in an 84mm would be too much trouble. In fact I'd be suprised if noone has done so already.

Here's a Chinese thermobaric warhead and launcher from almost 10 years ago.

Thermobaric warhead for RPG-7

But we are straying off topic.....

 

[TCBF]

I want one. 

Tom

 

[KevinB]

Thermobaric rounds are an OPSEC issue I spoke to some US guys who use them - and they don't want it discussed in open.


I think the simon round has a lot of potential. - but for stand off breaching - the shotgun is for in your face entry.  Just consider the shotgun - the masterkey for interior doors etc. 

 

[paracowboy]

shotgun good! Shotgun loud, go boom! Infantryman like shotgun.

The biggest problem with it, is the fact that we don't employ the MANY different types of ammo that has been developed for it: rounds for door take-downs, rounds to deliver tear-gas through walls/doors, bean-bag rounds for less-than-lethal, rounds for distance shots, flame-thrower rounds....etc, etc, ad nauseum. We haven't exploited the advantages properly.
Another big plus to the scattergun is the intimidation factor. There is so much myth and flat-out wrong thoughts surrounding it, that it terrifies the ignorant. There are reports drifting back form the ME, that terrorists fear the shotgun more than machineguns. Hollywood strikes again. And this time it works in our favour.

Me like shotgun!

 

[a_majoor]

I was vaguely aware of it, and I had at one point considered purchasing one (well,a Chinese copy) for my personal collection,   but then again I never claimed to be an expert on WWI infantry weapons.....why do you ask?

I thought I would combine your passion for scatterguns with your love of the bayonet 

 

[Britney Spears]

Hmm, well it makes sense to me. That shotgun would take a while to load, and the ROF would be similar to that of a bolt action rifle. Since the M1 Garand made bayonets obsolete Previously you could lunge with a bayonet faster than your enemy could work the bolt and re-aim, but once he had a semi-auto , not so much.......

 

[mudgunner49]

shotgun good! Shotgun loud, go boom! Infantryman like shotgun.

The biggest problem with it, is the fact that we don't employ the MANY different types of ammo that has been developed for it: rounds for door take-downs, rounds to deliver tear-gas through walls/doors, bean-bag rounds for less-than-lethal, rounds for distance shots, flame-thrower rounds....etc, etc, ad nauseum. We haven't exploited the advantages properly.
Another big plus to the scattergun is the intimidation factor. There is so much myth and flat-out wrong thoughts surrounding it, that it terrifies the ignorant. There are reports drifting back form the ME, that terrorists fear the shotgun more than machineguns. Hollywood strikes again. And this time it works in our favour.

Me like shotgun!

One of the biggest problems with this theory is the fact that when you need one type of round you'll almost always have the wrong one loaded(time is money - don't waste my money!!!).  My take - cut it as short as possible, and issue it with a bag of LockBusters and use it as a substitute for the 11.5D's (save a ton of wear and tear on the ankles...)

But then, what do I know...


Blake

 

[a_majoor]

Hmm, well it makes sense to me. That shotgun would take a while to load, and the ROF would be similar to that of a bolt action rifle. Since the M1 Garand made bayonets obsolete Previously you could lunge with a bayonet faster than your enemy could work the bolt and re-aim, but once he had a semi-auto , not so much.......

On the one hand, what you say is perfectly sensible, yet historically, the Germans were very fearfull of Marines armed with the "Trench Broom", and indeed, the Winchester Model 1897 soldiered on into the Viet Nam war, so obviously a lot of people believed the weapon is useful, and not just as a "master key".

 

[paracowboy]

One of the biggest problems with this theory is the fact that when you need one type of round you'll almost always have the wrong one loaded(time is money - don't waste my money!!!).   My take - cut it as short as possible, and issue it with a bag of LockBusters and use it as a substitute for the 11.5D's (save a ton of wear and tear on the ankles...

naaah, keep a slug in the chamber, mix of slug 7 double-ought buck in the magazine. Any specialized rounds you may need, you can just jack the slide, pop that round in, and Robert is your mother's brother. Been doin' it for years huntin' and screwin' around. Sidesaddle on the gun holds 6 rounds, get a sling with loops for as many other rounds as you're likely to need. Now, this being said, I'm not advocating trading rifles for scatterguns, but the shotgun is an incredibly diverse and useful implement. One per section, carried with a carbine, and you're away. (Also an AR-10T per section, but that's a different conversation.)

 

[KevinB]

I'm with mudgunner49 on the shotgun issue. 

 

[TCBF]

Interestingly, when us North Americans think shotgun, we think mostly twelve guage (unless we happen to have single tube multi-grand costing competition trap guns - not your average fowling piece).  The Comrades are making AK type security guns in .410 Guage, and some Yanks have been experimenting with a whole range of home brewed  ammo for it.  Probably another Hobby/Craze/Fad of guys in their garages with a Dillon or MEC  press trying to turn plastic high brass .410 hulls into an urban .416 Rigby.

Lots of fun, but filling no particular role, until the 'operators' start using them.  That's when the fashion show REALLY  begins.

Tom

 

[Kal]

What is the prescribed method of entry once an entry way is breached?  Are DDs's tossed in and then the team makes entry?  Also, what is the opinion of more 'dynamic' entries such as a member being trained in explosive entry techniques and using the shotgun and ram for weaker interior doors or when the explosive entry is undesirable or has failed? 

 

[paracowboy]

What is the prescribed method of entry once an entry way is breached?  

go in really fast.

Are DDs's tossed in and then the team makes entry?

  if you have any. I never have.

Also, what is the opinion of more 'dynamic' entries such as a member being trained in explosive entry techniques and using the shotgun and ram for weaker interior doors or when the explosive entry is undesirable or has failed?

  laddie, it's all based on what you have, who you have, what the building's made out of, and whether or not you have friendlies/innocents inside. Taking a building sucks. Nuthin' but variables, and the advantage always lies with the defender. I prefer "Nuke and by-pass". Much easier.

 

[Kal]

Perhaps I wasn't more precise in my questioning.   Are there 031 (conventional) operators formally trained by the CF in explosive entry techniques, if not, what is the opinion, by all ranks, on having them?   Or is it seen as being too specialized?   What are the entry tools issued for such tasks while in theatre?  

Not that I have been doing any type of dynamic entries, but wouldn't employing some type of distraction device for entries that haven't been breached by explosive means be essential to delay any 'fatal funnel'?   Just generally speaking, because as paracowboy said, all the variables that I won't get into.

 

[paracowboy]

Are there 031 (conventional) operators formally trained by the CF in explosive entry techniques, if not, what is the opinion, by all ranks, on having them?  

I know of several in 3 RCR who've taken the US Army MLCCCC, which teaches explosive entry techniques. But, I'm unaware of any such course here.

What are the entry tools issued for such tasks while in theatre? 

big heavy things to hit doors with. Stuff that blows up. Stuff that chops things down. I'd rather not tell any bad guys out there what we use to get at them. I'm funny that way.

wouldn't employing some type of distraction device for entries that haven't been breached by explosive means be essential to delay any 'fatal funnel'?

you'd think so, wouldn't you? Maybe if we stuck the MND as #1 in a stack, he'd get the hint.