Shotguns in the CF
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No better tool for clearing a room in a built up area fight. Other than a frag.
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actually, I just remembered that there is a course (fairly new) that teaches the use of charges. I can't recall the name off-hand. I apologize for the APS moment.
meh, whatayagonnado?
well, all skills are used to some extent, but when I was there, we didn't blow any doors. In fact, I cleverly breached one compound by brilliantly allowing two 9 year old little girls to run past me, duck under my arms and between my legs, and in through the gate. In their panic to escape my lumbering, hippo-like arse, they left the gate open and I placed my foot into the jamb, like a door-to-door salesman. So, I breached the gate through incompetence. :
meh, whatayagonnado?the only distraction device I've ever had available were my puppy-like eyes, or spitting some Skoal into somebody's face.
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Kal said:
I would hazard to say they're called 043's
Actually we had a couple 3RCR fellas on an explosive entry range back in April to see what our techniques / SOP's were so that they could at least be on the same page as us when it comes to explosive entry. Unfortunately, 031's and 043's don't get to work together enough on a regular basis here in Pet, it seems only when a tour or major ex is coming up do we get together and hash things out.
BTW, as was mentioned a page or so back, we don't like to use doors - generally we make our own.....
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One possible answer to the door/window thing is to breach it from a distance with a HEDP or a rifle grenade as illustrated a few posts ago. The explosion has the potential of destroying or triggering any booby traps and IEDs placed on or near the door/window, and has a fair chance of killing or at least mind f*****g the bad guys set there to cover the entryway.
Like every other technique, I would not be making a habit of doing this all the time (someone is bound to figure it out sooner or later), but save it for special occasions.
Like every other technique, I would not be making a habit of doing this all the time (someone is bound to figure it out sooner or later), but save it for special occasions.
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Thinking more in depth about it now, there really are too many variables when operating in a military setting. I'm sure more and better training will come out of recent and future operational experiences. There cannot be any one way for doing all types of missions that require a dynamic entry, and I see why more than a handful of options are needed when conducting such tasks. However, in my very limited experience, although I'm sure many members would agree, that regardless of the mission, whether it be arrests, raids, or just plain house cleaning, some sort of DD's must be made available. I find it alarming that such tools aren't readily available, but I hope they will be in the near future before we lose a life over it.
Thinking out of the box a bit, I imagine our main armament training ammo - 105mm "cement heads" would make a good door kicker. If all of the MGS end up on blocks due to a factory recall, I think an 84mm blue job would work just fine. Either fire the prac round into the door, or set up an 84mm off route mine (OOPS! It is NOT a mine...it is NOT a mine..) a foot from the door and face it AWAY from the door. an alternate form of templating would be needed in this case. Might not work with first world steel doors. Try it and see.
Tom
Tom
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no, but I really liked having one along with a C8. I guess what I really need is a gun caddy. (And while we're at it, a Sherpa. Also a donkey, but I digress...)TCBF said:
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KevinB said:
Nice to have somebody watchin' my "6" - but don't get me wrong... for layin' into a flight of Canada's there's nothing like a 3.5" 12 gauge loaded with an ounce and seven-eighths of steel #2's, except maybe lead - ah lead... the good old days (gazing fondly into the sky and dreaming about the coming fall and ropes of geese honking across the Norther Ontario sky...).
Blake
(who thinks nothing is better than autumn...)
"Also a donkey"
- as a 011 Crewman, I try to never mix business with my social life.
;D
- Was out on a civ range near Cornwallis in 85/86 and saw Tracey S__pera fire a five shot 4" group at 100 yards firing slugs from one of those Itallian Benelli Pump/Semi combo guns. Better than most 'cruits did with an FN C1A1.
Tom
- as a 011 Crewman, I try to never mix business with my social life.
;D
- Was out on a civ range near Cornwallis in 85/86 and saw Tracey S__pera fire a five shot 4" group at 100 yards firing slugs from one of those Itallian Benelli Pump/Semi combo guns. Better than most 'cruits did with an FN C1A1.
Tom
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All good point, but in regards to the accuracy thing, again, it comes down to right tool for the right job. The RCMP have now gone to a tactical "OO" round that produces a tighter shot pattern at 25 yards. In a FIBUA situation, you are not likely to encounter ranges that far, so as long as you are on target, it's going down. And need be, a shotgun has the capability of multi-round usage (ie slugs for long range, SSG for room clearing, HAT rounds for breaching doors). Awfully versatile to discount...
Question: since a lot of bad guys today are wearing body armour, I would assume a reasonably ogived 7.62mm or 5.56mm round would be a better penetrator than a round hardened lead .33 cal ball.
I assume the Wichester Ranger LE .223 Rem softpoints (that comes in those in those pretty 20-cartridge boxes) would still defeat soft body armour at most 'domestic' ranges. So, is the 00 Buck an officer confidence issue or an urban templting issue?
Tom
I assume the Wichester Ranger LE .223 Rem softpoints (that comes in those in those pretty 20-cartridge boxes) would still defeat soft body armour at most 'domestic' ranges. So, is the 00 Buck an officer confidence issue or an urban templting issue?
Tom
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TCBF said:
So would the stuff with the tips painted black.
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Urban issue thing, definately. Why do you think I carry a 9 and not a 45? The RCMP is scared about over-penetration. But that being said, you get hit with a chest full of buckshot, and regardless of body armour (at room clearing distance), I defy you to stay standing on your feet, in the fight. And not to discount accurate fire, but if a badger is wearing body armour, it takes less accuracy to put a round of SSG in the general area of his head than it does a 5.56. That is of course IF you are not worried about friendly casualties in the immediate vicinity. But as I said, some of the new tactical SSG loads put a much tighter shot pattern onto a target that before. At 25 yards, all pellets on target with a good, aimed centre mass shot. At closer range, say 10 to 15 yards (pretty big room), that badger is going down.
KevinB
Army.ca Relic
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Softpoint rifle will rip thru soft armour. There is a lot of speculation as to why agencies issue softpoint when there are many more effective rounds to be had -- C77 ball is WAY more terminally effective. Secondly hitting someone with a 12ga if he is wearing hard armour is not going to do much - if he is set the plate will disperce the force - Having seen Richard Davis of Second Chance do his 5 rds of 7.62mm into the chest at point blank - I think the NSR routine of 10+ rounds shoudl break up a plate and hopefully occupy him with a #3 or #4 pops him in the mellon.
With the shotgun - I know many decision to keep it have been based upon two things 1) Cost of procuring new patrol rifle/carbines is beyond the departments budget 2) Political Sensibilities - many administrators do not want their officers running around with black "Army" guns for percieved public outrage.
Having some experience with Shotguns I have attempted to use in a training dynamic entry situation -- I could not engage multiple targets nearly as quickly as I could with carbine, shooting 1 rd 12ga. "Tactical" (low recoil) 00buck versus 2rds / target of 5.56mm - wearing my armour and helmet. At 5'11" and 200lbs - plus 50lbs of kit I am guessing that anyone of smaller statue woudl have a devil of a time.
Secondly shooting to stop - I am putting rounds into the target until it starts to go down and is no longer a threat - it is relatively easy to put 5 rds into a tgt then continue with a 5.56mm carbine - wheras a few rounds of 12ga. and you've gone thru half your mag (I am utilizing a 14" 870 for this discussion).
Don't get me wrong I like shotguns but I feel people pick them for very ill informed choices based on what they think they can do - rather than the proper niche. I'd much rather see the team medic carry it as a DB (designated breacher) specifically loaded with the ceramic shotlock breaching rounds. Its much easier to three shot a door than attempt to halligan or sledge the door (but still keep those tools in the tool box...)
Menacing - yes Practical - not really.
With the shotgun - I know many decision to keep it have been based upon two things 1) Cost of procuring new patrol rifle/carbines is beyond the departments budget 2) Political Sensibilities - many administrators do not want their officers running around with black "Army" guns for percieved public outrage.
Having some experience with Shotguns I have attempted to use in a training dynamic entry situation -- I could not engage multiple targets nearly as quickly as I could with carbine, shooting 1 rd 12ga. "Tactical" (low recoil) 00buck versus 2rds / target of 5.56mm - wearing my armour and helmet. At 5'11" and 200lbs - plus 50lbs of kit I am guessing that anyone of smaller statue woudl have a devil of a time.
Secondly shooting to stop - I am putting rounds into the target until it starts to go down and is no longer a threat - it is relatively easy to put 5 rds into a tgt then continue with a 5.56mm carbine - wheras a few rounds of 12ga. and you've gone thru half your mag (I am utilizing a 14" 870 for this discussion).
Don't get me wrong I like shotguns but I feel people pick them for very ill informed choices based on what they think they can do - rather than the proper niche. I'd much rather see the team medic carry it as a DB (designated breacher) specifically loaded with the ceramic shotlock breaching rounds. Its much easier to three shot a door than attempt to halligan or sledge the door (but still keep those tools in the tool box...)
Menacing - yes Practical - not really.
"Why do you think I carry a 9 and not a 45? "
- Because they told you to? ;D
- Not wanting to start a math-heavy/KE/penetration/etc thread, i don't think it makes a difference what you carry as far as calibre goes, as long as your loads are selected for whatever performance envelope of penetration/expansion/other the powers that be have mandated. The calibre selection is probably based on the selection of pistols avail with hi-cap double stack mags in a reasonable and TRAINABLE size. Some consider .45/10mm/etc too much to train with. Many disagree, but, in any case, 9mm/.40 S&W seem to be good calibres. You may have issues with cartridge selection, or some of your peers may.
I think an adequate pistol/calibre/cartridge combo can only be effective with GOOD training, and that takes time and money. Which they would rather spend on lawyers after the fact.
As to scatterguns - at the ranges used - the LOOK of a gun can end the confrontation. 12 bore has a nice BIG hole. Easy for meth-heads to wrap their brain stem around. Speak softly and carry a scattergun with a big hole.
Tom
- Because they told you to? ;D
- Not wanting to start a math-heavy/KE/penetration/etc thread, i don't think it makes a difference what you carry as far as calibre goes, as long as your loads are selected for whatever performance envelope of penetration/expansion/other the powers that be have mandated. The calibre selection is probably based on the selection of pistols avail with hi-cap double stack mags in a reasonable and TRAINABLE size. Some consider .45/10mm/etc too much to train with. Many disagree, but, in any case, 9mm/.40 S&W seem to be good calibres. You may have issues with cartridge selection, or some of your peers may.
I think an adequate pistol/calibre/cartridge combo can only be effective with GOOD training, and that takes time and money. Which they would rather spend on lawyers after the fact.
As to scatterguns - at the ranges used - the LOOK of a gun can end the confrontation. 12 bore has a nice BIG hole. Easy for meth-heads to wrap their brain stem around. Speak softly and carry a scattergun with a big hole.
Tom
