Shotguns in the CF

[Blackhorse7]

True, this is not about pistols, it's about shotguns.  I ALWAYS take a shotgun on search warrants, no exceptions.  It has gained me a rep, but I have had rats tell me straight out, they damn near shit their pants when they saw that.  It was like looking into their own grave.  If that kind of influence gets me or you home alive, then it's worth it.

 

[TCBF]

Agreed.  In your business, better to scare them into co-operation with a big hole, than kill them with a small one.

Works with tanks, too. ;D

Tom

 

[bossi]

(catching up) - Thanks for the reminder about "Trench Broom"
(although "The Equalizer" always worked for me, as far as historic references ...)

And, speaking of bayonet lugs ... my fav, the Mossberg 590, used to have it (and a laser designator ... hence it became known as "The Intimidator" - works real well when used to calm down rioting inmates ...)

 

[mudgunner49]

True, this is not about pistols, it's about shotguns.   I ALWAYS take a shotgun on search warrants, no exceptions.   It has gained me a rep, but I have had rats tell me straight out, they darn near crap their pants when they saw that.   It was like looking into their own grave.   If that kind of influence gets me or you home alive, then it's worth it.

Absolutely - I concur with your situation, however LE & mil are two different applications for the weapon system...  I also have used the cavervous muzzle to "calm the waters" and for this it works as advertised!!


Blake

 

[Blackhorse7]

But that's my whole point.  I think for FIBUA fighting, the shotgun can play a valuable role.  See previous comments about it's versatility and power.

 

[KevinB]

Blackhorse we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

CQB is about precision killing gone are the days that dinosaurs cleared rooms by spraying.  You simply will not be able to enage multiple targets fast enough with a shotty that you could with a carbine.  And shotgun mag capavity is dreadful and reloading is awkward nto to mention ammo carriage is not ideal - the sidesaddles get loose and drop rounds while the gun is being used in a physical manner and a bandolier sling adds a dreadful amount of weight and encumbersome ness that is not needed.

When you come to a locked door on a dynamic - you need to either to have the MOE open his bag (taking you down one shooter) and do a mechanical breach - or have the shotgun ready to breach - and the breaching rounds are not something you'd want to shoot people with. 

I'd invite people to have a good read of this topic over a lightfighter.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/4991085331

 

[a_majoor]

Off on a tangent here, but some of the comments about the variety of loads avaiable for a shotgun started me thinking.

I recall there was an "over/under" combination of the M-16 and some sort of 12 gauge shotgun during the Viet Nam war, and some posters have mentioned a more modern version. It seems to me that one person in the entry team could be issued with that to do the "master key" thing, but still have the C-7 to deal with things once inside. The same weapon combination would be able to fire "beanbag" rounds to knock down people when the ROEs call for less than leathal force, and of course there are the various slugs, 00 Magnum shots and so on for special occasions. (The troop would be issued and load whatever is appropriate before hand, soldiers preparing for dynamic entry would not be loading "beanbags" into the 12 gauge).

As for the size and weight, we accept the M-203 40mm grenade launcher as a neccesary piece of kit despite the size and weight (not to mention the size and weight of the ammunition), so the over/under combination shouldn't be considered too differently. Like the M-203 itself, the shotgun half can stay in the CQ lockup if the situation or ROEs don't call for it, ready to be bolted back on when required.

 

[paracowboy]

CQB is about precision killing gone are the days that dinosaurs cleared rooms by spraying.   You simply will not be able to enage multiple targets fast enough with a shotty that you could with a carbine.   And shotgun mag capavity is dreadful and reloading is awkward nto to mention ammo carriage is not ideal - the sidesaddles get loose and drop rounds while the gun is being used in a physical manner and a bandolier sling adds a dreadful amount of weight and encumbersome ness that is not needed.

When you come to a locked door on a dynamic - you need to either to have the MOE open his bag (taking you down one shooter) and do a mechanical breach - or have the shotgun ready to breach - and the breaching rounds are not something you'd want to shoot people with.  

stop using logic to eliminate my perfectly sound emotional arguments!

If we don't go with the "over-under master-key concept" we can still go with having a scattergun on a single-point sling. When the breacher fires his three rounds, and steps out of the way of the rest of the stack, he simply allows the shotgun to drop, and transitions to either a carbine, or pistol. It may be a bit of a pain, though, as it's gonna bang against his leg while moving through the building.

Thoughts?

 

[KevinB]

The M203 is a good system - however it is being eclipsed by more modern designes - and Deimaco's M203A1 mount is an abortion if I have ever seen one - anyone wonder why the Ski tems uses Colt M203's with KAC QD mounts...

However in the CQB environement IF I can keep the grenadiers out of the house (at least clearing I will) even on the C8SFW the M203 is awkward to manuever in close shooting.

The Masterkey set up is another cumbersome item - however unlike the M203 where no effective (key being effective) standalone setup existis for it - the breaching shotgun is an excellent stand alone system.

I have used the KAC Masterkey on a M4A1 and I must say I found it extremely wanting - awkward and tough to aim at a lock (I have several scars on my legs from Kevin's learning the hard way with shooting doors) - the offset for the barrel makes shooting close in tgts very hard.  

The pictures Brit put up of the Mosberg/Serbi Super Shorty are an IDEAL breacher - that does not get carried away with any other role.

Less lethal: We where not allowed to use less lethal items in Afghanistan to do certain provision of the Rules of Landwarfare (or JAG interpretation of them) and the Chemical Weapon Provisions  :   - Unlike Canada where I support the use of less lethal methods - if some asshat overseas is acting up - he is getting a few 5.56mm rounds and the story is done.


Para - IF I get my shory breacher finished - youl be the first to see - it is a very similar setup - as soon as I can get the business to finish it - I will have a 7" 870 with pistol grip (registered as a pistol) with 3+1 capacity with 2" breaching rounds - or 2+1 with 2 3/4 shells.
You can put a single point on it - or tuck under the cumberbund of a RAV (or similar vest)





 

 

[paracowboy]

and Deimaco's M203A1 mount is an abortion if I have ever seen one

A-friggin'-men! Stupid set-up, with a capital "dumb"! I liked the old one, hate this one. Hate it with the intensity of a billion burning stars.

However in the CQB environement IF I can keep the grenadiers out of the house

agreed. He opens the door for me, we (riflemen) go in. Once the place is cleared, he and the C9 gunners move to a position they can fire us (or another sect) into the next building, or provide cut-off.

You can put a single point on it - or tuck under the cumberbund of a RAV (or similar vest)

hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.

 

[KevinB]

A-friggin'-men! Stupid set-up, with a capital "dumb"! I liked the old one, hate this one. Hate it with the intensity of a billion burning stars.

Nothing like adding 2.5lbs more and a 2" drop for NO reasons (other than BS)

 agreed. He opens the door for me, we (riflemen) go in. Once the place is cleared, he and the C9 gunners move to a position they can fire us (or another sect) into the next building, or provide cut-off. hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.

I was thinking more under arm barrel at waist level at most. - maybe a clip on the vest?  Maybe we should run DLR 5-5  ;D

 

[Britney Spears]

hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.

I suppose since the weapon is tiny, you can use the drop leg holster that it comes with...

Wait, we are still talking about the "tiny" shotgun, right?  ???

 

[paracowboy]

Wait, we are still talking about the "tiny" shotgun, right?   ???

well, if that's what the kids are callin' it these days...

 

[a_majoor]

I think I will take my chances with an "over/under" setup rather than a shotgun thumping against my leg, or giving me a nice warm glow next to the family jewels!

 

[mudgunner49]

C'mon guys - 3 rounds just warms it up to the point where it's "comfy"...


Blake

 

[TCBF]

At the risk of contributing to the incipient "long cold rolled/hammer forged steel barrel substitutung for the short, much maligned biological one" (guilty, but aren't we all?), I will add:

"Happiness is a warm gun" - Lennon (Inspired by a gun magazine cover).

So, do we need  niche 12 guage - or 10, or whatever - scattergunz in the CF to open doors, or could something else we carry be adapted for that purpose?  Seems to me, everybody is carrying enough, now. 

Tom

 

[KevinB]

We already have 870's as breaching shotguns - they are just to big - the fixed stock's LOP is too long for troops in body armour.  Acquiring shoter barrels - and ideally a dedicated short shotgun woudl be a step forward.

 

[TCBF]

There are bow-koo after market accessories for the 870.  We should be able to trick it up with a cut barrel and a pistol grip or a folding stock.  They don't all need to be ready to shoot trap off the fantail at a moment's notice. 

Tom

 

[Slim]

at the shooting school that Glock17 and I run we use two different shotguns. The Winchester defender and the Rem870.

We have taken off the factory stock and forestock and replaced them with folding stocks, pistol grips and neoprene forstocks.

We have found that the weapons, which were so long and rather cumbersom to go through doors with, are now quite manageable and also appropriate for passenger seats in vehicles as well.

Also both are easy to strip and clean.

Having personally owned a Defender at one time I will say that it keeps going regardless of the dirt which may have collected inside it.

Both great guns!

Slim

 

[TCBF]

When I was A MCpl in Cornwallis, I shot Trap at the Base Club, initialy bwith a Defender.  The old guys (Base CWO, CSMs etc) said it was too loud, so I bought an IGA Gauco through the mail.  I eventually sold`the Defender, the Mossy 500, and some CIL pump 12. 

Tom