Shotguns in the CF

[MJP]

CFL are you talking about this for tracers?(#4)

[The Human Rights Library wishes to express its gratitude to the Institute Henry Dunant for its contribution of this document.]

The United Nations Conference on Prohibitions or Restrictions of Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects, convened on the basis of United Nations General Assembly resolutions 32/152 of 19 December 1977, 33/70 of 28 September 1978 and 34/82 of 11 December 1979, met at the Palais des Nations in Geneva from 10 to 28 September 1979 and from 15 September to 10 October 1980.

Eighty-five States participated in the work of the Conference, 82 at the 1979 session, 76 at the 1980 session.

On 10 October 1980, the Conference adopted the following instruments:

1. Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects (Appendix A).

2. Protocol on Non-Detectable Fragments (Protocol I) (Appendix B).

3. Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices (Protocol II) (Appendix C).

4. Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III) (Appendix D)

In addition, the Conference at its 1979 session adopted the following resolution: Resolution on Small-Calibre Weapon Systems (Appendix E). The texts of the above-mentioned instruments and resolution are appended to this Final Act.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, signed in Geneva, this tenth day of October 1980.

(Here follow signatures of the President and Executive Secretary of the Conference.)

Because here on protocol III appendix D it clearly states.

For the purpose of this Protocol:

1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.

(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:

(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;

(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.

edited for spelling

 

[Slumsofsackville]

So you cannot engage a person with a C6 or C9 becuase every 5th round is a tracer. Makes no sence. Tracers play a vital role in MG fire.

 

[MJP]

Robert did you read the GC protocols above? No where did it say you can‘t engage enemy combatants with tracer. MG tracer is legal and can be used without restriction.

 

[portcullisguy]

MJP you are correct. I read it the same way you did...

Incendiary includes flamethrowers, etc., but does NOT include "tracers, illuminants, smoke, etc" rounds.

I don‘t think the incediary effect of a common 5.56mm or 7.62mm tracer round will do significantly more damage to a person than the round itself is already doing when entering a human.

 

[MG34]

Tracers are NOT considered Incendiary rounds,never were.Tracers are intended to mark targets,show the trajectory of machine gun bursts,act as aids to navigation,and a whole whack of other uses. The lack of understanding of the Hague and Geneva Conventions with regards to weapons is pretty appauling in the CF as a whole for instance some common myths out there that I have heard:

1.You cannot use .50cal against troops-- Bullshyte!!! Nothing bans the use of .50cal against troops,heck check yours pams trrops .50cal HMG states 1850m as the max effective range when engaging dismounted troops.

2. Snipers use illegal ammunition--The 168garin Boat Tailed Hollow Point bullet uses a hollow cavity as a function of it‘s design.The hollw area is covered by a partial full metal jacket.As the hollow point is a feature of the design of the bullet and not a modified round it is legal.

3. It is illegal to shoot at airborne troops while under canopy in the air-- This ruling applies to shot down piolts only,airborne troops are fair game just the same as if they were on the ground.

Finally with regards to ammunition the Canadian Forces does not issue any ammunition that cannot be used against enemy troops in time of war or any conflict from the 9mm to the 25mm and beyond all can be used against enemy troops.

 

[MJP]

Since we went horribly off-track with a GC lesson combined with some myth debunking.

I found a picture of the shotgun that ColinP mentioned before from a LAV patrol in Kabul. It was in the Canadian Military Journal and it caught my eye since we were just talking about this subject. Shotgun

Maybe MG34 could fill us in on how they were issued/used in Athena.

 

[MG34]

The 12 ga. is issued one per section in the Rifle Coys and basically if you can justify having one you can get it issed out on a temp. basis .They are used for close protection of vehicles and patrols in normal use.They have been used on other specific missions such as raids on suspect homes and compounds.As well they are used for vermin control and dealing with dogs and such critters that are in abundance in Kabul and outlying areas.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MG34:
[qb] Tracers are NOT considered Incendiary rounds,never were.Tracers are intended to mark targets,show the trajectory of machine gun bursts,
[/qb]

Ironically, the highest scoring fighter groups in the USAAF in WW II were those that stopped using tracers - seemed that the ballistics of the tracers and the invisible AP, ball or whatever they called it ammo were different.

Would this not be the case for the ground mount .50 we use today, also?

 

[George Wallace]

Opps ....Double Post


GW

 

[George Wallace]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
- seemed that the ballistics of the tracers and the invisible AP, ball or whatever they called it ammo were different.

Would this not be the case for the ground mount .50 we use today, also? [/QB]

The differences are there, but are considered negligible. Gunners are taught the Theory of Gunnery and about the different characteristics of the various ammo used, and if required they know how to compensate for those differences.

GW

 

[Doug VT]

At range there is quite a difference. As the trace compound burns off, the round becomes considerably lighter. They are usually lighter to begin with. The trajectories of tracer and ball are quite different. It‘s absolutely true, and makes complete sense.

 

[MG34]

Actually no it is not entirely true,the tracer ammunition does indeed have a different trajectory from ball,but the tracer still falls within the beaten zone of the MG so there is no problem with the use of the tracer to spot the trajectory of the burst.The difference in the path of flight are not enough to cause concern,if it were the MGs would have to have different sight settings for every tracer round fired compared to ball.
Modern tracer rounds burn at a much more regular rate than in WW2 which has further increased their accuraccy in comparison to ball rounds.Once again this is illustrated by the fact that C44 AP-T .50,API-T rounds can be fired on the same data as ball rounds.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have seen a quote elsewhere from the GC, that explicitly states that the ban on incendiary ammunition use against human target does not apply to tracers or smoke rounds.

Basically if the round is designed to inflict pain and suffering to the target by it's incendiary nature then it is banned.

Interesting note, watched a show on P.L. Robertson, the inventor or the Robertson screw (bless him!) who was a Canadian, apparently he tried to convince the high command in WWI to develop tracer bullets to help AA guns aim their fire. Apparently they did not come into generally use until shortly before WWII.

One of the problems with Tracers rounds, is that they don't follow the same trajectory as the regular bullets, so they can set you off target over longer ranges.

 

[George Wallace]

Originally posted by Colin P:
[qb] One of the problems with Tracers rounds, is that they don't follow the same trajectory as the regular bullets, so they can set you off target over longer ranges. [/qb]

Yes there are differences. However, Gunners are taught the differences, and how to compensate at different ranges. They also watch for "Splash" on target/target area. They learn what to do after "Trace Burn Out", which brings up the fact that Tracers do not burn forever, but for only a short period of time.

GW

 

[babicma]

Seeing that the last topic went "off topic" with tracers etc etc etc.

I found some stuff on CF shot guns:

1. http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c870intro.htm

2. http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c870p.htm

3. JTF-2 Shotgun of choice: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/shotgun/m4s90.html

4. And the GI CF shotgun: http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh23-e.htm

 

[meni0n]

Why are people never satisfied with a c7 is beyond me.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Because sometimes the C7 is not the right weapon for the job.

 

[Franko]

The big thing is to look for the "beaten zone"...where the rounds are landing and put that on the target after TBO(small puffs of dirt)...to quote Ripley...

"It‘s the only way to be sure...."

Regards

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Can you see the "neaten zone" in the TIS? I know you can in Steel Beasts, but I was wondering if that would show in the real world?

 

[babicma]

Different tools for different jobs!