Shotguns in the CF

[GrahamD]

Exactly, it was probably first invented for hunting birds.
It would be very difficult to hit a duck flying away from you at 40kph and 100ft alt with a rifle.
The shotgun makes shots like that realistic, once you learn how to lead your target.

As for why police forces and militaries around the world use them today, it would be because they are excellent close quarter weapons with effective stopping power.
You can shoot the hinges or deadbolts right out of a door if you have to, and the neccesity for perfect accuracy is considerably reduced.
A center mass shot with either buckshot, or a slug from less than 50 feet will take down anyone, even if they were wearing kevlar it would still knock them on their *bum*.

My dad used to hunt grouse with a 12 guage, he would aim high so that the bottom of the spread would just catch their head and neck. It was very effective, their head would literaly disappear. Shooting a grouse with a rifle is very difficult, since their heads are so small, and shooting them center mass destoys all the meat.

Anyway, the shotgun is definately a useful weapon, and shooting people into a million pieces was probably not what it was intended for when it was invented.
Besides, to do that kind of damage to a person, you would need to be standing really really close to them.

 

[Infanteer]

Question has been sufficently answered, however, Don Kon also appears to be trolling for something, so I‘m going to lock this.

Don Kon, in the future, if you want to ask a question, pose it in a serious manner or it will recieve undue attention from the staff.

 

[mudgunner49]

Why are people never satisfied with a c7 is beyond me.

...next time you go out to play 18 holes, just take your putter...


Blake

 

[scm77]

^^That's a good example.

 

[Jarnhamar]

...next time you go out to play 18 holes, just take your putter...

What a simple statement that can be applied to a thousand situations. Thats perfect

 

[MG34]

I think you are righ Ex-Dragoon.

It is a grenade launcher but it is made in Serbia.

It actually says Made in Yugoslavia on it.

It is just another ripped off design,in this case of the South African Milkor MGL-6 40mm Rotary grenade launcher

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thanks MG34 I knew I wasn't talking out of my @ss.

 

[KevinB]

Remington 870 Police Magnum  - simple and all that is required - and CF issue.

Only use we have for it here is breaching, so the 18" bbl on our is a little long.

The newest version the MCS http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm

 

[Bartok5]

I owned a Mossberg 500 Bullpup a long time ago.  It was an abject piece of shite - just a standard "low-rent" Mossberg 500 encased in a bunch of rattly plastic.  I sold it to someone who didn't care about performance, and that was that.

As for the Rem 870P?  My personal experience has been that this pump-gun is all that you need.  I own one as private citizen, and having put many, many rounds down-range I trust it implicitly.  We had them issued on the basis of one per section in Afghanistan during my tour in 2002, and the "Remmies" served extremely well.  They're not just for breaching, although that is an emminently viable role.  A 1 oz slug will take the fight out of just about anyone within 100 metres, which is pretty much max engagement range in a urban environment in any case....  Not to mention a slug's ability to punch through light cover and automotive glass, confound vehicular radiators and engine blocks, etc, etc.  Then consider (if we ever buy them) all of the various "less lethal" .12 ga munitions on the LE market - beanbag rounds, rubber baton rounds, etc. etc.  The pump shotgun remains an extremely viable and versatile infantry weapon in the current inventory.  There are NO international legal limitations on the weapon itself, so anyone quoting the Hague Conventions is entirely out to lunch.  Trust me - we went through all of that prior to my former unit's deployment to A'Stan in 2002, and the lawyers said that we were good to go. 

Bottom line?  Shotguns are good for selected infantry work.  There ought to be one in every rifle section during operations in complex terrain - urban or otherwise.  It is all a question of the correct ammo natures for the job at hand.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Mark what if they issed a C7 fitted with a 12guage KAC masterkey would this be something the infantry would want?

 

[MG34]

The MasterKey is an answer to a question that was never asked,IMHO it is a useless piece of kit to be hanging off of a rifle. An M203 would be the better option if you need to hang something off of a rifle.The device needed the most is a breaching stand off device,which allows you place the device right against the door when doing a breach.The stand off device will focus the full power of the shot into a small precise area,while allowing the expanded gases to vent. The 18in barrel is fine for patrolling,roadblocks etc but seeing more often than not the shotguns are used in some breaching operations a 14 inch barrel would be a better option,as the barrels are easily changes out you could swap barrels depending on the mission at hand.

 

[KevinB]

Ditto to MG34  ;D

 

[Enzo]

Thanks to Babicima for getting this thread back on track awhile ago. (I'm just catching up on my old threads now) Seems the Masterkey is the answer to the question I was posing. I was unfamiliar with it prior, an interesting concept. Not certain if I'd like to be the one to carry that under my M4, but still, interesting nonetheless. I think the Russians have a winner with the Saiga, wonder if the Yanks will try to develop something superior? The Europeans seem pleased with the Franchi products, anything coming up from Benelli or H&K? What of other regions? Anything new coming up?

 

[Britney Spears]

What is pam prescribed drill for breaching doors? Do you blow the lock? the hinges? all three? If you only need to blow the lock then a breaching round for the M203 would be easier to carry than a full blown shotgun, although presumably for house clearing this would be a non-issue.

 

[noreaga808]

Babicima touched on the Valtro PM-5 but had a different picture. The version shown below is non-restricted, has a 14" ported barrel and uses a 7 round mag. Apparently it's used worldwide by some police forces and militaries according to thier website. Benelli developed the M4 shotgun shown below for the American Military. Both of these shotguns are way too expensive, the Valtro being $800 and the Benelli $2500 retail(I've been window shopping). I don't see the cash strapped Canadian military replacing the tried and proven Remington 870's especially with expensive fancy models. The Remington modular system that KevinB illustrated previously makes perfect sense to me. The 870 is already in service so all that would be needed is Remington to supply modular kits to the CF, hopefully giving the CF's a good deal since they're an existing customer. The expense to train the Gun Plumbers would be minimal due to needing very little if any additional training for the new kit. I'll attach another pic to show the 3 different configurations. The pic has Remington's logo, let me know if it's unacceptable to post such a picture.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

To much time playing video games where you get to carry 100 lbs of weapons plus ammo without getting tired!

 

[purple peguin]

you got it right there colin p when will they come out with a realistic game, I have a game that will let you carry about 10 weapons plus hundreds of rounds with it.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This thread is not about video games. Keep it on track.

PP
I'm sure you'll agree, you've been warned about this sort of thing. Be very careful. Last chance.

 

[392]

What is pam prescribed drill for breaching doors? Do you blow the lock? the hinges? all three? If you only need to blow the lock then a breaching round for the M203 would be easier to carry than a full blown shotgun, although presumably for house clearing this would be a non-issue.

There are more effective ways to breach through a door than to use a shotgun (M203 would probably work better for long range breaching followed up by effective MG fire), although it might take a little longer to set up. Det cord will blow the door/lock/hinge/whatever to smithereens ;D (or be precise and only take out the hinges or door handles - situation and amount of explosive required dictates) as well as confuse or hurt the hell outta the bad guy on the other side of it. Of course, this would only be used in a situation where damage / death to whatever is on the other side of said door is the main effort.
Anyway, there are different types of charges that we as Engineers use in a FIBUA / OBUA setting to get the grunts through the door / wall / floor / etc. (so they can do what they do best - get the bad guys  ), but I'm a little beat right now to start trying to explain them and their uses.

Anyway, not much for the shotgun discussion, but some extra food for thought in the FIBUA breaching ideas.....

 

[Britney Spears]

Thanks 392, I think the shotgun/M203 would only be useful for an infantry section who need to get through a door and into a room "right now". Experience has shown that entering through doorways are a bad idea all together, and it is helpful to assume that all doors are rigged to go boom and/or covered by fire. If I had a sapper with detcord handy I would avoid the door completely and instead go through the walls. Ideally there would be a lightweight, easy to use shaped charge kit that will make a good sized hole through the wall, disorientate and stun the occupants of the room without completely vaporizing them (hey, less than lethal!) which can be carried and used by the infantryman, so that an infantry section can penetrate and clear a bunch of rooms without needing engineer support, and I suppose they can also be used on doors as well.. The Israelis found this to be very efffective in Jenin. 

I think the biggest obstacle with this approach would be the time and expense it would take to train all the dumb mudsloggers to safely and effectively use the charges. Of course the one size fits all type of charge probably won't work every time on every wall but it beats trying to pile 8 guys through a narrow doorway that might be booby trapped or have a 14.5mm zeroed in on it. This way the infantry can move through buildings much faster and more safely, and save the valuable and expensive sappers and let them do the more specialized demo stuff (i.e. clearing routes )

Just thinking aloud, I don't have any details to flesh this out, and of course I haven't actually tried this in real life, so please, enlighten me with all the critisism you can muster.....