Should Cbt Engr EOD, IEDD, and chemical IEDD pers have a domestic mandate?(Split From: Joint Engineer Support Regiment?)

[Spr.Earl]

HX guys don't do domestic for the Coy.   RCMP EDTS does it for the Coy as part of the Nat CBRN RT.

Coy denotes size, not status.   It is a DCDS Unit.

:skull:  

Ah but HX qualified F.E.'s could do domestic Op.'s. but what is lacking is the mandate too do it.

 

[Mineguy]

Im out of the army loop permanently but i think absolutley they should. It gains experience and most importantly they get the be current then as iedd requires that.I just pent 2 years working with former uk iedd guys all old ammo techs 2 who taught in canada in borden and in the felix center iedd to the RE so i know how they felt. That makes total sense in the new world we are in to have that capability, that canada whether or not the average citezen belives it we are targets too and the troops need to be able to do their job to practice it. Now whether or not it would be a huge bun fight over taking somthing away from the ammo tech world that they see as 100% theirs or putting engineers into a realm where the split for example making iedd to ammo techs goes to engineers too, it seems that there would be some sort of re inventingthe wheel. The reason if im correct that iedd isnt with engineers is because i believe we are based on the uk model where in the uk forces they have taken iedd away as the RE doesnt have time to deal with it in war time or somthing I think we had a whole post on this previously. Of course it makes sense 100% that they should have a domestic iedd and eod tasking but then we get into should there be an engineer eod iedd unit soley for that.Isnt there one stood up or was stood up or at least training? I think absolutley there should that covers base and civi area of base and i dont know if now there is but i would like to see it!" On the flipside That also might cause a bunfight with police forces eod iedd unless it was joint which is good too for co operation.

Just my 2 cents worth and I dont know whats developed since 2003!!

 

[McG]

EOD & IEDD are Engr jobs. However, it is something we do overseas where we cannot count on the police.   Sometimes we do it because there is a lack of ammo techs, and other times because we are with the pointy end when there is a tactical requirement for it to be done.   Being at the pointy end is the most pressing reason that we are in the EOD and IEDD role.    

I don't know how much benefit we would produce with a standing domestic role.   RCMP or provincial police likely would have better responce times to most locations.

However, if someone finds military ordnance in the back yard in Canada, I believe the job still falls to CF EOD pers to clean-up.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Now we can say we have come full circle.
We are just catching up and I do believe that EOD/IED should be a separate Trade due too the present World Threat in regards to mainly IED's

The Terries are changing their tool's every day and we must keep up but we do have not any designated EOD Unit that can deal with this.Now is the time to start.

But we F.E.'s should still keep the E.O.D. trade in the true sense on the Battle Field.

Yes MCG I'm on it again.
WE NEED DSEGINATED EOD UNITS for domestic and over seas Ops. just like the Brits and Yanks.
Until then our EOD capability is a joke!!

EOD is fine when it comes to munitions but it's a 180 when it comes to IED's!

 

[McG]

I tend to think each CER should have an EOD/IEDD troop.   It should consist of four x 8 member sections (each split into two dets).   This would allow each CER to generate a section for each BG that its Bde may generate.

If EOD and IEDD are not seen as enough to justify a full troop, then include MCM in the package and call it the Mine Warfare and Explosive Devises Troop (MWED Tp).

At the same time, there should be sufficient EOD/IEDD capability in the Fd Tps to respond in an emergency.   However, IEDD kit is specialized and not held at that level.

But all of this I see for in support of military operations, not in support of police services.

 

[Spr.Earl]

"I tend to think each CER should have an EOD/IEDD troop.  It should consist of four x 8 member sections (each split into two dets).  This would allow each CER to generate a section for each BG that its Bde may generate."


Won't work,to much interferance as the Reg. is the Command,we need a seperate Command for EOD/IED must be separate .Just because of hands off from higher and all other commnads untill attached.

MCG I'm not going to argue but I still believe that we need Designated EOD/IED Units like we had before.Untill then we are still be playing in the sand box.
Sorry but thats my point of view in this day and age.

 

[Mineguy]

Well im a believer that canada (or should i say the govt who makes the final call -and not intelligent sometimes) does everything military in response to the nessecity of it and how they see how threatened we are.Which explains our situation and people like ms parrish, trudeau and others. Its a no brainer that we should have a sole Engineer EOD trade even though we havent had to deal with ww2 bombs in subways or car bombs all the time like the uk, it just makes sense. Now in the present world which is upside down it would be just leaving ourselves open to not having an EOD unit that is 100% hands off to anyone in a regiment and a brigade asset only or higher. I can just vision it As soon as its part of a regiment youre doing all sorts of other non eod things when theyre gonna be short and theres too many cheifs dictating what you can do and respond to. It should be totally seperate and they should be constantly on a rotation and doing eod stuff ( and on exchanges learning and getting foreign qualifications) in the thick of it in hot areas not responding only everynow and then but so theyre always getting experience, some overseas some in canada training and covering canada same as the brits I guess.

 

[Spr.Earl]

I totaly agree or we may end up like a 3rd World Country.

http://www.xposed.com/videos/amazing/3rd_world_bomb_squad.aspx

 

[Kat Stevens]

Canada's army, and the Engineers in particular, have always be re-active rather than pro-active.  Until a suicide bomber sets himself off in a Timmies on Younge St, we are never going to see a large number of IEDD operators in our beloved corps.  EOD is just another tool rusting away because we never get to take it out and polish it... My unpopular opinion, of course...

CHIMO,, Kat

 

[Kat Stevens]

Oops, premature discharge.  As evidence of this mentality, I clearly remember nil return after nil return being sent back to Regt Trg Office.  The logic was that we already had X number of qualified pers, and if they went on a gucci course, why, they wouldn't be available to sit around the Troop Stores sharpening shovels.  Made no sense to me then, makes even less now...

Kat

 

[Spr.Earl]

Oops, premature discharge.   As evidence of this mentality, I clearly remember nil return after nil return being sent back to Regt Trg Office.   The logic was that we already had X number of qualified pers, and if they went on a gucci course, why, they wouldn't be available to sit around the Troop Stores sharpening shovels.   Made no sense to me then, makes even less now...

Kat

The Gucci course's are an eye opner!
I don't have any but just my H.A. but have been taught the drill's for Bio/Chem. decon and predisposal actions and they are no joke.They are time consuming,tedious and that's with out the paper work before or after the decon. or the predisposal actions.
Just the Recce is a bitch and that's with out even getting close to the target!

We have to wake up NOW because the RCMP can't handle the whole country,,if we don't,I can see the Head Lines,"Where Was the Army?" if or when we do get hit.

One ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

 

[McG]

The logic was that we already had X number of qualified pers, and if they went on a gucci course, why, they wouldn't be available to sit around the Troop Stores sharpening shovels.  

The mentality has changed a lot.  The CMD package (that replaced the BMD package) on the Sect 2ic course now satisfies the prerequisites for HC or HB (so we don't even send guys on HA any more as they've got the by).  Only the officers don't get the HA by-pass.

. . . and we are also much better at pushing for spots to get guys HB and HC.  Operational experience has shown we need this, and we are rushing to catch up.

However, domestically we cannot hope to have a reasonable responce time if bombs start exploding in Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.  There needs to be a local capability.  That should be in the police forces (or maybe even the fire departments).

 

[Kat Stevens]

Domestically, non military ordnance has never been an army responsibility.  EOD 24 in Chilliwack, as far I know, never responded to any calls other than souvenir grenade in grandad's basement kind of thing.  I think all levels of enforcement need to step up their commitment to EOD/IED, as the explosive option is not going away any time soon.

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[SprCForr]

EOD 24 provided back up on many occasions for the RCMP. The Vancouver EDU was extremely undermanned and under equipped. The regionals didn't have an EOD capability yet/ever and relied on whoever they could get. Farmers ditching dynamite gone bad, disgruntled UBC students, Surrey bad boys, all sorts of other calls were handled. Anything out past Abbotsford was pretty much coming our way because we could get there quicker and afford to have a team respond. Tommy, with the RCMP, was never let out simply because he was the only guy available in the GVRD. Yes, some of the calls were for Grandpa's souviners, but about the same percentage was for IED's, and the remaining majority of callouts for unexploded WW II ordnance. At that time any military ordnance, altered or not, anywhere in mainland BC, was the responsibility of EOD 24 and the police would'nt touch it because of that. Domestically, any device or ordnance found on DND property is a military responsibility.

Kat, forget about Vernon? The huge numbers of fired and unfired mortar rounds from the war, popping up in housing subdivisions? Hardly Grandpa's souvvies.

The nil returns frequently seen in the Trg office reflect the fact that MCpl/Sgts were not available to attend. Cpl/Spr's were not qual to attend, HA or not. Kenny was the only one I ever knew and I don't know the details around him being eligible to attend the HC.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Domestically, non military ordnance has never been an army responsibility.

Okay then, as an adendum.  Not our RESPONSIBILITY, but within our operating abilities if other agencies can't/won't respond.  Better?

 

[SprCForr]

Yep. 


;D

 

[Spr.Earl]

The mentality has changed a lot.   The CMD package (that replaced the BMD package) on the Sect 2ic course now satisfies the prerequisites for HC or HB (so we don't even send guys on HA any more as they've got the by).   Only the officers don't get the HA by-pass.

. . . and we are also much better at pushing for spots to get guys HB and HC.   Operational experience has shown we need this, and we are rushing to catch up.

However, domestically we cannot hope to have a reasonable responce time if bombs start exploding in Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver.   There needs to be a local capability.   That should be in the police forces (or maybe even the fire departments).

From what I know,BMD was changed to CMD because of a pissing contest between CFSME and Bordom.
Bordom stated that BMD did not qualify one as an H.A..So CFSME changed the wording so now a 3 week CMD course replaces the 6 week H.A.,just a play on words but I think everyone should have an H.A. first.
You get everything right up to being a #2 in a I.E.D. Team.
Do they teach that on the CMD?

As for the by for the H.B. I also think it's wrong.

As for Domestic Ops.,we had better start now before it's to late.
As I stated the RCMP can't handle all domestic Ops. and can't cover the whole country.

 

[SprCForr]

I'm curious, where does the practical grounding for a course like the HC come from these days? Is there an IED portion in the CMD? Are the units allowing HC qual pers the time and equipment necessary to keep the qualification current? Nick brings up a good point about the time spent as a #2.

 

[McG]

Is there an IED portion in the CMD?

No, and because we can no longer send guys HA, we need to qualify a guy HC just to be a #2.

Are the units allowing HC qual pers the time and equipment necessary to keep the qualification current?

We don't get the equipment except for TMST.

 

[Spr.Earl]

No, and because we can no longer send guys HA, we need to qualify a guy HC just to be a #2.
We don't get the equipment except for TMST.

Ah the old scramble of catching up because we have been lazy over the past 15 odd yrs.

Sappers need the H.A.,you learn so much on the course.
CMD is just good for the field and only good for bipping and thats all.