SMLE No.1 Mk.3

[ExSarge]

Ok, quick question for you hard core historians and weapons buffs. When was the Lee Enfield No.1 Mk III withdrawn from troops in Italy and replaced with the No. 4 Mk. I? I have seen photo’s showing 1st Div troops going ashore  (perhaps Sicily?) carrying the Mk III but can find no information about when or how the swap was accomplished. I’m also interested to know how the troops at the sharp end took to the change.

 

[1feral1]

I know the ole British made SMLE (WW1 dated) was used at Dieppe by the Cdns, but many pics I have seen our our Lads in Italy are with No.4 Mk1*'s. I have seen Longbranch No.4's dated 1942, and mine is 1943, Ser 36L54XX.

If you have pics of Canucks in Italy with the ole SMLE, I have some of the 1 Div's Carlton and York Reg't in the Vill of Campochiaro. Perhaps some units had them and others did not?

Confused  ;D ?

Regards,

Wes

 

[3rd Herd]

Ok, quick question for you hard core historians and weapons buffs. When was the Lee Enfield No.1 Mk III withdrawn from troops in Italy and replaced with the No. 4 Mk. I? I have seen photo’s showing 1st Div troops going ashore  (perhaps Sicily?) carrying the Mk III but can find no information about when or how the swap was accomplished. I’m also interested to know how the troops at the sharp end took to the change.

DND/dhh site is down for the summer however "Canadian troops took the No. 4 Mk I into action for the first time on Sicily in July 1943, and the weapon remained in service in all theatres throughout the war. The weapon was once again taken into action in Korea, officially, between 1951 and 1953"http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/weapons/rifles.htm


"A modified, simplified design was known as the No.4 Mk. 1* and was produced in Canada at the long branch Ontario factory near Toronto who were, by January 1943 making 25,000 per month and as lend lease, by Stevens Arms Co. Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts in America who made over 1,000,000 during the war."http://www.turretsandtracks.co.uk/bongo.pl/rifle.leeenfield.no..4...303/

Edit to add:another reason for having books on shelves

" Rifles: Until November 1942 the rifle of the Canadian Army was the .303 inch Short Magazine Lee Enfield No 1(Marks III and III*) as used in the First World War; during the following months it was replaced by the No. 4, which by June of 1943 became available from Canadian sources. Features of the new rifle were great simplicity of design, the aperture battle sight which allowed quicker aim, an improved disposition of weight, and the shorter spike type bayonet. The No.4 was generally thought by no means universally preferred to the No 1; the chief objection was to the battle sight, which could be set only  at 300 and 600 yards. In July 1944 this device began to be replaced by the more satisfactory aperture leaf sight." Stacey, C.P. Six Years of War: The Army in Canada, Britain, and the Pacific (Ottawa: The Queens Printer, 1955)pg.544.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect that it was only after the war and army was drawn down would all of the older rifles be withdrawn from service. There always seemed to be a shortage of rifles throughout the war from what I have read.

 

[3rd Herd]

I suspect that it was only after the war and army was drawn down would all of the older rifles be withdrawn from service. There always seemed to be a shortage of rifles throughout the war from what I have read.

See:

ARMING THE NATION CANADA S INDUSTRIAL WAR EFFORT ’ 1939-1945 A PAPER PREPARED BY
DR J L GRANATSTEIN FOR THE CANADIAN COUNCIL OF CHIEF EXECUTIVES
http://www.ceocouncil.ca/publications/pdf/96caf0766aea104b87fcfa9a559e1d27/Arming_the_Nation_A_Paper_Prepared_by_Dr_Granatstein_May_2005.pdf

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Thanks a good read 

 

[ExSarge]

Thanks guys. It looks like I have a small mystery on my hands. I have photos of members of the 48th highlanders going ashore in (what I now know is Sicily) carrying the Mk III. Unfortunately the original owner of the photos and one of the subjects in the photos has passed on so I’m unable to check with that source.  The hunt goes on!

By the way, I have come across an unconfirmed account that on ship board prior to the Sicily invasion, the 48th under went a kit inspection. During the course of the inspection the members of the Regiment were found to be in possession of 3600 prophylctics but only 3 bars of soap! Again I repeat, this is an unconfirmed report, but still…

 

[geo]

You can share a bar of soap.... but you really shouldn't even contemplate sharing the prophylactics....

But that's just me

 

[ExSarge]

You can share a bar of soap.... but you really shouldn't even contemplate sharing the prophylactics....

There is a scurrilous rumour that at the end of their Italian service the 48th had only one of these 3600 condoms left. According to the rumour the RSM detailed a medical orderly to determine whether purchasing a new one or repairing the old was the more fiscally responsible option for the Regiment!

True or false, well only members of the Regiment can tell, and they have remained tight lipped about the allegation!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My understanding is that they voted to have it repaired, saving themselves 25p  ;D

 

[geo]

There is a scurrilous rumour that at the end of their Italian service the 48th had only one of these 3600 condoms left. According to the rumour the RSM detailed a medical orderly to determine whether purchasing a new one or repairing the old was the more fiscally responsible option for the Regiment!

True or false, well only members of the Regiment can tell, and they have remained tight lipped about the allegation!

You didn't say .... how many of the bars of soap were on hand at the end of same said Italian service...

 

[ExSarge]

You didn't say .... how many of the bars of soap were on hand at the end of same said Italian service...

Funny enough they still had those three bars of soap!

 

[geo]

LOL!

 

[3rd Herd]

Continuing off topic:

"New battalion establishments only added to the confusion of the Canadian units overseas. In January 1943, the 31 (soon to be 33) infantry battalions lost their anti-aircraft platoon and one of the four rifle companies. The news in late January that D Company of the 48th Highlanders was to be disbanded stunned and outraged the men for whom their company was such a source of pride. Three months later came orders to reintroduce the fourth rifle company. This reversal increased the battalion establishment to 37 officers and 811 other ranks. The first parade of the 48th Highlanders new D Company came just hours before the units departure from Eastbourne for Scotland. A new company march, Donalds Return from the War, helped soften the impact of yet another change in establishment."

kilts on. kilts off, kilts on..............

source:
Hayes, Geoffrey. " The Canadians in Sicily, Sixty Years On"
http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~ghayes/HayesSicily.pdf

Edit to add:

Continuing on topic:

The superior combat performance of the Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1 was proven in the North African Campaign, where the ingress of desert sand made many weapons non-operational. In addition, the Canadian Army in Italy, during combined patrol operations of that campaign, found that only the Lee Enfield rifles continued to fire under the adverse combat conditions that were experienced. General George Patton claimed, in error, that the Garand was the ultimate battle rifle, however this distinction belongs to the Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1 rifle."
Canada‘s Military Rifles By Lester W. Karas, P. Eng. (No citing of sources related to above found in the article)
http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/2006JanBulletin.pdf

 

[3rd Herd]

Ex Sarge,
sorry for the delay this quest to a little longer. The Loyal Edmonton regiment received their Lee Enfield Mk 4 No.1 in January of 1943. The source here is Stevens G. R. A City Goes to War, Charters Publishing Company, Brampton, Ontario. 1962. On page 223 referencing Exercise 'Pheasant', "New weapons were issued, Mk. IV No.I service rifle, the top secret PAIT............."

I had better luck with the PPCLI as a peruse of the war diaries shows "The new MK.IV rifles have been issued and Coys. are concentrating on getting them zeroed................." with a date of 26 Jan 43. I have attached a jpg. of this particular page. I also came across 10 pages of information from the experimental station, Canadian Military Headquarters, London, England, 1942, titled Pistols, Rifles and Machine Carbines, Vol II. These are precis notes indicating the technical differences between the "No.4 Mk.I and the No 1 Rifle" included in the ten pages are also the No.4 Mk. 1(T) data and 1(T). This information is not available on the web or in published sources I have checked. Actually, the whole series of volumes was quite fascinating. If you PM myself with a fax number I will send them to you or anyone else who would like a look at these archival treasures.

As to the RCR and 48th issue I will have to leave that to another member with access to their respective war diaries. If someone should take on this task the months of January and July of 1943 seem to be the key. We are hypothesizing that the RCR and 48th did not receive the new rifles until the July issue. This is based on an examination of range photographs and Sicily landing photographs.

Credit due to Donna, Bruce and Al at the Military Museum for letting me have the keys to the castle.