Somali Islamic militant group Al Shabaab claims 2013 Kenya mall attack

[ModlrMike]

a la Sean Connery in The Untouchables

"They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue."

 

[Remius]

I know it's wrong, but I can't help but have a thought that it's about time the "good guys" start wiping out the families of those who commit these acts. It MAY deter some in the future.

I'm sad to say that maybe I'm letting the "bad guys" win thinking like that.

There are a lot of things the good guys could do for deterence.  Things the general public would not be able to stomach.  The Romans had creative ways of dealing with problems.  So did Alexander the Great.  Heck, the Mongols solved their problems before they even became problems.

But that sort of thing would never fly.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The Russians used this in Beirut in the mid 80's with great effect.  They weren't messed with twice there.  I worked with someone who was in our embassy at the time and told me about it.

 

[Remius]

The Russians used this in Beirut in the mid 80's with great effect.  They weren't messed with twice there.  I worked with someone who was in our embassy at the time and told me about it.

I believe they mailed a body part or two belonging to the hostage takers families and that more would follow if they didn't release some hostages.  Alpha Team, or Group or something like that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The Russians used this in Beirut in the mid 80's with great effect.  They weren't messed with twice there.  I worked with someone who was in our embassy at the time and told me about it.

That was also around the time the Soviets still had non-Western ways to deal with internal political opposition, too, in the days when nobody gave a rat's hind quarters about public opinion and perception.

 

[OldSolduer]

That was also around the time the Soviets still had non-Western ways to deal with internal political opposition, too, in the days when nobody gave a rat's hind quarters about public opinion and perception.

Now its all about "root causes".

 

[MilEME09]

Now its all about "root causes".

Which leads to "soft" diplomacy as I like to call it, where no country really wants to set a firm stance or get it's hands dirty. If they did the election might not go in their favour, all boiling down to the court of public opinion and the media.

 

[OldSolduer]

Which leads to "soft" diplomacy as I like to call it, where no country really wants to set a firm stance or get it's hands dirty. If they did the election might not go in their favour, all boiling down to the court of public opinion and the media.

The vast majority of the public have never lost a relative to a terrorist, nor have the media.

 

[Kilo_302]

The vast majority of the public have never lost a relative to a terrorist, nor have the media.

Exactly. Terrorism is really not the threat that the media loves to make it out to be.  Look at the media coverage of this event. 62 people dying in a single incident in an African country rarely makes much of an impact in our media for the usual reasons. I almost laughed watching Ian Hanomansing musing on air last night that the story was so significant because "Many people are thinking, 'Boy I was just in a mall, it could have happened to me.'" Duh. It was an attack on a mall frequented by wealthy Kenyans and Westerners, so we are talking about it.  The simple fact is, terrorism is not much of a threat outside of a very few places (Iraq, Afghanistan etc). And there are far more tragic and banal and common ways to die, especially in Africa.

The suggestions of some that we "go after the families of terrorists" doesn't make much sense either, however emotionally satisfying it may be. Terrorism 101: terrorists want to inspire an overreaction on the part of government forces (whoever they might be) to in turn drive recruitment and support for their cause. Invading Afghanistan and Iraq played right in Al-Qaeda's hands unfortunately, it just took 10+ years for us to figure that out. So would murdering the families of suspected or convicted terrorists. Do we want to give extremists more evidence of "Western crimes?" Look, if the price of our continued economic success is the occasional terrorist attack on the fringes of empire (or the even more occasional attack at home) that's something we will just have to live with.

 

[Jed]

Exactly. Terrorism is really not the threat that the media loves to make it out to be.  Look at the media coverage of this event. 62 people dying in a single incident in an African country rarely makes much of an impact in our media for the usual reasons. I almost laughed watching Ian Hanomansing musing on air last night that the story was so significant because "Many people are thinking, 'Boy I was just in a mall, it could have happened to me.'" Duh. It was an attack on a mall frequented by wealthy Kenyans and Westerners, so we are talking about it.  The simple fact is, terrorism is not much of a threat outside of a very few places (Iraq, Afghanistan etc). And there are far more tragic and banal and common ways to die, especially in Africa.

The suggestions of some that we "go after the families of terrorists" doesn't make much sense either, however emotionally satisfying it may be. Terrorism 101: terrorists want to inspire an overreaction on the part of government forces (whoever they might be) to in turn drive recruitment and support for their cause. Invading Afghanistan and Iraq played right in Al-Qaeda's hands unfortunately, it just took 10+ years for us to figure that out. So would murdering the families of suspected or convicted terrorists. Do we want to give extremists more evidence of "Western crimes?" Look, if the price of our continued economic success is the occasional terrorist attack on the fringes of empire (or the even more occasional attack at home) that's something we will just have to live with.

You are quite right about that. However ,and it is a big however; appeasement has to be reigned in before inertia drags us down a slippery slope to the bottom of the ditch. We have to stand our ground some time an set up to make an effective counter attack.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I believe they mailed a body part or two belonging to the hostage takers families and that more would follow if they didn't release some hostages.  Alpha Team, or Group or something like that.

Not mailed but personal delivery to the doorstep area.  The hostages were released within hours and there was never a repeat performance against the Russians.

 

[Remius]

The suggestions of some that we "go after the families of terrorists" doesn't make much sense either, however emotionally satisfying it may be. Terrorism 101: terrorists want to inspire an overreaction on the part of government forces (whoever they might be) to in turn drive recruitment and support for their cause. Invading Afghanistan and Iraq played right in Al-Qaeda's hands unfortunately, it just took 10+ years for us to figure that out. So would murdering the families of suspected or convicted terrorists. Do we want to give extremists more evidence of "Western crimes?" Look, if the price of our continued economic success is the occasional terrorist attack on the fringes of empire (or the even more occasional attack at home) that's something we will just have to live with.

I don't think anyone here seriously thinks we should go after families of terrorists.  But our western values are exactly why it is difficult to go after these guys in the most effective manner.  The problem is that the west hesitates and limits it's responses to these things.    You need an overwhelming, decisive and very very clear response.

I'm probably going to sound like a thug for saying this but...9/11 was the perfect chance for the US to send a very real and clear message.  3000 people were killed on their own side.  The Taliban were harbouring those responsible.  I'm convinced that the US should have dropped a low yield nuke on anyone of a number of training camps and tell the world not to eff with them.  Do you really think Iran, North Korea or any other despotic ruler would have been sabre rattling all these years?  Oh, there would have been condemnation etc but you can bet that there would be 20 years of "Leave them alone" and "maybe we should take them seriously". 

You can bet that some of these psychos are willing to die for their cause but they are likely not too keen on having their kids or wives or parents do the same.  It's not right, I agree, but it likely is a very good deterence.  They don't play by the rules and the West does (or what we see as the rules) and they know it.

The price of our economic success shouldn't have to be the occasional terrorist attack nor should we have to live with that.  in fact the occasional terrorist attack is what likely threatens that exact success.

 

[a_majoor]

One very positive tale of heroism, and the darker side of the terrorist group (as if it could get any worse):

http://gma.yahoo.com/kenyan-heros-harrowing-tale-rescues-mall-massacre-134150330--abc-news-topstories.html

Kenyan Hero's Harrowing Tale of Rescues in Mall Massacre

By Alexander Marquardt | ABC News – Fri, Sep 27, 2013 9:41 AM EDT

ABC News - Kenyan Hero's Harrowing Tale of Rescues in Mall Massacre (ABC News)

In one of the most memorable images to emerge from inside the Nairobi mall attacked last weekend by Islamic extremists, a 4-year-old girl is seen running toward a man who is reaching out a hand to pull her to safety.

The man was Abdul Haji, a 39-year-old real estate executive who rushed to the mall as the attack got underway. He managed to evacuate scores of people to safety, including that young American girl, Portia Walker, and is being hailed in Kenya as a hero.
SEE: KENYA ATTACK IN PHOTOS

As the gunmen began their rampage in Nairobi's upscale Westgate Mall early Saturday afternoon, Haji got a short text from his brother who was at the mall. "I'm stuck at the Westgate. It's probably a terrorist attack. Pray for me." Haji's immediate thought was that militants had gone to assassinate his brother.

Until just a few weeks ago, his brother was an undercover counterterrorism official battling organizations like al Shabab, the al Qaeda-linked group that has claimed responsibility for the four-day siege that left almost 70 people dead. But a local media outlet had recently revealed Haji's brother's identity and the family - including their father, a former defense minister - had started receiving death threats.

Haji says he grew up around guns and lately had been carrying his pistol with him. "I left where I was and I headed straight to the Westgate," Haji told ABC News. "Luckily on that particular day I had actually carried my licensed gun with me so I didn't have to go back home to waste time and pick up a gun, I went straight to the mall."

When he arrived he quickly figured out his brother was not the target. Haji joined up with a group of around 15 men outside, including some security officers, most of them armed and some wearing body armor, and headed into the mall with workers from the Red Cross. "It was like a war zone," he said. "I've never seen such a massacre. I've never come across such a thing. It was shocking. There were young girls, there were ladies, elderly people, some children. We were shocked."

The group had taken a ramp up to the mall's top floor which they started clearing, going store to store and yelling at people to get out, many of whom didn't know which side the men were on. "Most of them were really petrified, they could not move. They were lying down on the ground as if they were dead but they were not dead," said Haji. "We kept shouting that we're police officers, 'get up, get up, open the door, we're police officers.'"
As they arrived on the mall's ground floor, the attackers opened fire on the group, shooting one of the men Haji was with in the stomach. It was then that Haji came face to face with one of the attackers, whom he described as "of dark complexion, he had a black bandanna tied on his head."
"When his eyes and my eyes met, he started taunting me and telling come closer," Haji recalled. "Telling me in Swahili, 'come, come.' As if it was a joke to him. This whole thing was a joke to him."

Nearby, a woman was trapped behind a table. Haji yelled at her to run to them but the woman, 39 year-old Katherine Walker, said she couldn't because she had three young children with her. Haji told her to send the eldest, 4-year-old Portia, who ran across. "[A] very brave girl," said Haji affectionately. "She's running toward a man with a gun and she was very brave."

"I don't know how she knew to do it but she did," Katherine Walker later told The Telegraph newspaper, "she did what she was told and she went."
Walker and another woman followed close behind with the other two children who then re-united outside with the family's two teenage sons who had been shopping elsewhere in the mall. "I was worried about family in America seeing [the photo] because we haven't really shared the whole story with them yet," Walker told the newspaper. "For me, I know the story behind it and that it ends well. I think I owe Mr. Haji a hug or two."

As Haji arrived at a Nairobi hotel for the interview, he was instantly recognized by hotel staff who asked for photos with him. But Haji dismisses all the talk of him being a hero, saying he was just going to the mall to save his brother. "I think anybody in the situation would have probably done the same thing," he said. "[If] he was armed and thinking the worst about his family he would have probably done the same thing."

Haji claims he's coping well in the aftermath of the ordeal. He says he doesn't remember any nightmares but his wife has told him that he has been crying in his sleep. "I never saw anything like that," said Haji. "It'll probably stick with me for a long time. And I just hope I don't have to go through the same thing again."

and the darker side:

http://www.newser.com/story/174983/nairobi-mall-victims-were-tortured-say-reports.html

Nairobi Mall Victims Brutally Tortured: Reports
DOCTORS, INVESTIGATORS OFFER GRUESOME ACCOUNTS

By John Johnson,  Newser Staff
Posted Sep 27, 2013 12:44 PM CDT
           
(NEWSER) – The al-Shabab militants who attacked a mall in Nairobi last weekend didn't just kill their victims, they tortured them and mutilated their bodies, according to accounts in Kenya's media rounded up by USA Today. It makes for rough reading. The stories quote doctors and investigators who describe gouged eyes and dismembered bodies hanging from hooks. One doctor says every body suffered some kind of abuse. By the current count, the militants killed at least 67 people, and another 61 remain missing, reports AP.

The missing are presumably still buried in the rubble that resulted when three floors of the mall collapsed during the army's counter-attack. Meanwhile, the BBC reports that the militants were able to launch such a well-armed assault because they had previously rented a shop in the mall and posed as business owners. In the weeks leading up to the attack, they were able to bring in hidden weapons via service elevators and stockpile them in the shop.

 

[tomahawk6]

Unleash the drones !!

 

[The Bread Guy]

One more, speculative name:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/kenya-shopping-mall-siege-assault

............Security sources said there were at least 10 attackers, including one woman, but there could have been as many as 15. One eyewitness, a 16-year-old Kenyan girl who escaped on Saturday, said the female militant might have been "mzungu", the Swahili for white person.

The possibility of a white attacker has fuelled speculation that a British terror suspect, Samantha Lewthwaite, nicknamed the "White Widow", could be involved in the plot. She was married to 7 July bomber Jermaine Lindsay, and was last year named on a Kenyan police wanted list over alleged links to a suspected terrorist cell.

Sunday began with a barrage of gunfire at 7am local time as Kenyan soldiers attempted to storm their way into the ground floor entrance to the mall's largest shop, the Nakumatt supermarket.    ..............

Bumped with the latest ....

A Kenyan court on Friday said prosecutors should close their case against British terror suspect Samantha Lewthwaite, dubbed the "White Widow", after failing to produce her in court.

Lewthwaite is accused of possessing explosives and planning terrorist attacks on Kenya's tourist coast, but police have been unable to find her since she gave them the slip in 2012.

The trial of her alleged accomplice, fellow Briton Jermaine Grant, is ongoing in Mombasa.

"This case is just like any other case, and if the suspect cannot be found, then the case should be closed," said Mombasa chief magistrate Julius Nang'ea.

Kenya issued an arrest warrant for Lewthwaite in 2012 and then requested Interpol to issue a "Red Notice" in 2013.

On Friday, state prosecutor Nicholas Kitonga pleaded that police needed more time to find their suspect, whose whereabouts are unknown ....

Still on Interpol's Red list, though ....