• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Some soldiers stealing weapons

McG

Army.ca Legend
Reaction score
5,082
Points
1,260
Some soldiers stealing weapons
Last Updated Sun, 20 Jul 2003 22:21:56
http://www.cbc.ca/news/

OTTAWA - The Department of National Defence has uncovered missing guns, ammunition and other military hardware in some soldiers‘ homes, CBC News has learned.

The extent of the problem is not known. But government documents obtained through the Access to Information Act show at least 10 sites in Canada where Armed Forces property has been found since 1997.

In one case in Saskatoon, more than 30 kilograms of ammunition were seized in a soldier‘s house, along with weapons and a mine detonation kit. Investigators also discovered a hole in the ceiling where a bullet had been fired.

Other discoveries from caches across the country include:

* Stolen pistols in Alberta and Ontario;

* Crates of ammunition and smoke grenades in B.C.;

* Three kilograms of explosives hidden in a soldier‘s barracks.

The easiest item to steal is C-4, a plastic explosive handed out in chunks at training exercises, according to Scott Taylor, a military analyst and publisher of Esprit de Corps magazine.

"A lot of guys will pocket a small amount of that, if they want to collect it," he says. "Over a period of time they can accumulate some."

Another trick is to avoid throwing your grenade during a live fire drill, and then pocketing it when no one is looking.

In some cases, soldiers who love weapons simply want souvenirs. But in other instances, they sell the stolen property to make money, according to Defence Department documents. There can also be links to organized crime, Taylor says.

The military acknowledges that some weapons and ammunition are stolen, but it says the theft is rare and that stopping it altogether is virtually impossible.

"Before and after every training exercise, before and after every operation, we conduct a complete inventory of weapons and ammunition to safeguard against that sort of thing," says Capt. Mark Giles, a Defence spokesperson.

"It‘s not a perfect system, but I think it‘s a very, very good policy. And the vast, vast majority of our personnel are meeting our high standards."

Officials won‘t say how many of the people linked to the missing weapons have been punished, or exactly how much military hardware has been taken or found.


Written by CBC News Online staff
 
quote "Another trick is to avoid throwing your grenade during a live fire drill, and then pocketing it when no one is looking." unquote

Hmmm, let‘s see. Into the Ready Bay with an NCO, handed your grenade. Out of the Ready Bay into the Throwing Bay, with another NCO. Max supervision all the way till you throw. No explosion. "Alright shyteheel, take it out of your pocket, you can‘t take it home!!"

Scotty Taylor is the biggest crack baby the army ever produced for a two week service time.

Any newspaper or news media that uses him as an expert came from the Jerry Springer School of Journalism.
 
Whoops. I started another thread on this in the Canadian Army forum; seems that this story got enough press that at least one talking head is suggesting our ammo decs aren‘t good enough and we need to be babysat with random spot checks.
 
**** recce, you beat me to it.

Whenever I see Scott Taylor‘s name, I automatically know the article is almost pure BS. That guy is a wanker.
 
If there is theft, I expect more return on investment would result from investigating what transpires in the supply and shipping system, not on the ranges.
 
**** recceguy i was about to comment on that too.

Just "pretend to throw the grenade"

NCO: Did you throw your grenade troop?
Troop: Duh ya didn‘t you hear it?
NCO: Hummm maybe my hearing is going, no smoke or debris, must be a stealth grenade, carry on troop!

Idiots.
 
I, too, find this article based on a fantasy - at least from my brief experience thus far.

Although I have yet to participate in a major live fire ex, I have been to the range and to the training areas several times on my BMQ, SQ and now MOC Infantry courses.

At the grenade range, I was handed two HE grenades. There was no way in **** I was going to trick anyone into thinking I threw them, if I didn‘t, by saying "bang" -- they‘re bloody loud. Even the training grenades, which only go "pop", are loud enough to notice, and they‘re bright blue.

That same day we fired a TP RAP round out of the Carl G. No chance of pocketing one of those, since only two people were firing per serial.

Friday, I fired off two HE rounds out of the 60mm mortar. Nevermind the fact that a mortar round would be pretty useless without the mortar, the firing point NCO certainly knows exactly what happened to each round given to you.

About the only thing you can realistically get away with scooping is blank and live ammunition, and then only in small amounts.

Our first day on the C7 range on BMQ, we had a full inspection, in the cold, after marching back to the bunkers where we were staying at Borden. It turned up 2 or 3 empty casings which had "fallen" into crevices/pouches "unnoticed" by the wearer. There were red chits but no charges, and a severe warning to carefully check all kit.

Anyway, who really cares for blank or live rifle ammo anyway?

The live stuff you can buy at any sporting goods store. .223 cal (5.56mm) ball. Common small game hunting round. The blank stuff is absolutely useless without a BFA if you are using a semi-automatic rifle. You will only get one shot off at a time. Firing single-shot just doesn‘t impress me much, unless it‘s a big calibre.

I have never even SEEN C4 plastic explosive, only heard about it. I suspect unless I am ever working with Range Control, or unless I join the engineers or JTF2, I probably won‘t see any C4 during my military career as a reservist.

And with everything serialized with lot #‘s and everything, I believed them when they told me they‘d eventually track down where/who/how any pyro or ammo got off a CF base, even if it takes them 5 years.

Nuts to the media.
 
Hey, you know it‘s not always in a bay where you throw a grenade. Ever post a grenade in a trench on a live fire ex? I have on quite a few occasions, however it wouldn‘t be easy to steal a grenade even in these circumstances. Who would really want to anyway, you‘re just asking for trouble...
 
Mortar rounds no good without the mortar? But....I saw Tom Hanks use one in a movie like that. And that cute boy with the brush cut...he used one too. You obviously don‘t know your *** from a hole in the ground, soldier!!!! :cool:

Why on earth is this even national news? Who could it possibly help, even if it were true, by broadcasting it to every dumbass civilian in the country? Just another way to demonize us. Maybe the media thinks that if they make us look pathetic enough the government will throw some money at us or something?
 
Explosives being stolen and taken into the community by people who may/may not know how to use/store them...who WOULDN‘T want to know?
 
What difference does it make to you if you didn‘t know before? Are you an EOD expert or something?
 
You know, most of the stuff in the news doesn‘t relate to me anyway; Is that a reason to remain ignorant? Why bother knowing that you‘re living next to a man who‘s raped several women if you‘re a man who‘s never been raped?
 
Petition the powers-that-be to have him relocated (...or shot as the situation may determine :D ) or in this case, embarass the military into further tightening up whatever controls are in place to prevent such incidents.
 
BUt nothings ever perfect.. what do you want them to do??? strip search everyone until every long-haired dope-smoking greasy civvy freak is satisfied?? give me a break... true, the nation should be informed on what the army is doing IN THE BIG PICTURE, but why shoulkd they be told of everything in the smallest detail? That‘s why the army has separate laws, separate courts, and separate codes of conduct then the civvies-- To be able to deal with criminals in our own fashion!!!
 
Doug is entirely correct. Scott Taylor for once is aswell for he points out "Another trick is to avoid throwing your grenade during a live fire drill, and then pocketing it when no one is looking"

Live Fire Attacks happen like that - fire and movement, it is hard to tell after the fact who took trenches versus who did not and everyone had tow (or more) grenades.

That said I don‘t know of anyone who has done it, or why one would. Most of us kept the pin from our first grenade (July 1987...)

But as a realist, every crowd has its bad apples the CF is the largest employeer and is bound to get its share - when you factor in what we are exposed to...


-Kevin
 
I have to add one point to this: grenades, like all CF ammo are very tightly controlled. During the attack you may lose track of who was issued how many, and who threw at what trench, but sfety staff keep track of the number of grenades thrown. They are required to visually see the preparing drills, see where it lands (in case of duds), and confirm everyone is behind cover. If a section is issued 4 grenades and 2 are thrown, they‘ll know there should be 2 coming back.
 
FWIW- stealing guns would be possible to do, but darn near impossible to cover up/hide- wouldn‘t happen twice, doubt it would happen the first time successfully.

Stealing ammo is another matter. IMHO stealing as much of whatever you want is child‘s play. Trick is to be the right guy in the right place- ammo nco, rso, etc. Thing is, I‘ll bet it never happens- because the right guys are in the right place.

No matter what you do, it all boils down to integrity and honesty- and, despite all our other flaws, I believe that we still have plenty of folk with both.

Cheers-Garry
 
Any time i do a weapons declaration i always hold up my hands and say "What about these! These are registered weapons" Then i break into a ninja pose, everyone laughs then for some reason im on sentry during lunch and most of the night.

Scott Taylors mind is a weapon. One of those weapons that seem to hurt the good guys instead of the bad guys.
 
Back
Top