Starship Troopers/Is China REALLY So Bad? ;) (split from '25 Federal Election thread)

[Fishbone Jones]

l guess it would look like the CAF in a lot of way? An organization that everyone who ever served in willingly and freely joined, that some have devoted their entire adult lives serving, and that some still think is a good thing, at least some of the time?

Starship Troopers? A vote in exchange for civic service?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I may live to regret this, but I've pulled the "China admiration or not" discussion bits out of the election thread to see what kind of life it might gain (or not) on its own, and to keep the election thread more about the election itself.

Army.ca Staff

 

[FJAG]

Starship Troopers? A vote in exchange for civic service?

That needs to be military civic service - civil service won't do. In fact if I recall correctly to get into the civil service you first have to do military service.

 

[The Bread Guy]

That needs to be military civic service - civil service won't do. In fact if I recall correctly to get into the civil service you first have to do military service.

IIRC, one would get to vote and run for political office if they successfully served, but I don't remember civil servants having to do a term.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Starship Troopers? A vote in exchange for civic service?

A fantastic idea.

That needs to be military civic service - civil service won't do. In fact if I recall correctly to get into the civil service you first have to do military service.

Military service was the most common but there were other forms of service that one could undertake from EMS to clerical so long as you wanted to serve a job would be found for you.

The only way the Federation was allowed to deny anyone federal service is if they felt an individual was mentally incapable of understanding the oath.

The original oath (From Robert A. Heinlein's novel) is over three times the length:

I, being of legal age, of my own free will, without coercion, promise, or inducement of any sort, after having been duly advised and warned of the meaning and consequences of this oath, do now enroll in the Federal Service of the Terran Federation for a term of not less than two years and as much longer as may be required by the needs of the service. I swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the Federation against all its enemies on or off Terra, to protect and defend the Constitutional liberties and privilege's of all its citizens and lawful residents of the Federation, its associated states and territories, to perform, on or off Terra, such duties of any lawful nature as may be assigned to me by lawful direct or delegated authority, and to obey all lawful orders of the Commander-In-Chief of the Terran Service and of all officers or delegated persons placed over me, and to require such obedience from all members of the Service or other persons or non-human beings lawfully placed under my orders - and, on being honorably discharged at the completion of my full term of active service or upon being on inactive retired status after having completed such full term, to carry out all duties and obligations and to enjoy the privileges of Federation citizenship including but not limited to the duty, obligation and privilege of exercising sovereign franchise for the rest of my natural life unless stripped of honor by verdict, finally sustained, of court of my sovereign peers...

So help me God.

 

[Lumber]

I may live to regret this, but I've pulled the "China admiration or not" discussion bits out of the election thread to see what kind of life it might gain (or not) on its own, and to keep the election thread more about the election itself.

Army.ca Staff

Oh great, now my name and avatar are associated with a pro-China thread based on opinions I don't actually stand behind lol.

 

[Lumber]

A fantastic idea.



Military service was the most common but there were other forms of service that one could undertake from EMS to clerical so long as you wanted to serve a job would be found for you.

The only way the Federation was allowed to deny anyone federal service is if they felt an individual was mentally incapable of understanding the oath.

When this comes everyone associates this type of government with fascism. Further, Heinlen meant for the form of government in the novel to be vilified, not admired.

However, despite this, I don't see why you couldn't have the whole "federal service" aspect and still maintain the overall core of democracy.

For example, take the charter of rights and freedoms and modify so that Section 3 (the right to vote and hold office) is only eligible to those who have completed 3 years of federal service. Everything else stays the same. Further, add a section to the constitution that says judges can NOT be federal citizens. That way, the law makers and executive brance are citizens who have performed civil service, but they are checked by a civilian court (the judges would still be "appointed" by the executive), and the basic rights and freedoms that we hold dear today are still guaranteed by the constitution/charter, and enforced by a civilian judiciary. Sure, the fact that judiciary is appointed by the citizen executive can lead to a the "packing" of courts with judges who, despite being civilians are friendly to the citizenship, but that already happens in a full democracy!

 

[The Bread Guy]

Oh great, now my name and avatar are associated with a pro-China thread based on opinions I don't actually stand behind lol.

Then let it hereby be proclaimed that your intent, like that of the person seconding the motion they disagree with, is to bring it to the floor for hearty discussion & debate

 

[The Bread Guy]

A fantastic idea ...

In theory, maybe. A thought exercise ....

Think of the 4-5 smartest, keenest, most ethical civilians you know.

Then, think of the 4-5 worst, scummiest, laziest, most selfish military members you've served with or are currently serving with.

Which of those groups would you prefer to have a hand in choosing the nation's political leadership? Which of them would you prefer running for office?

As a young, keen Master Corporal infantry section commander, I loved Starship Troopers. As a greying older fart, I'm seeing more shades of grey in the model Heinlein lays out

Still enjoy ST as a good read, though.

 

[Halifax Tar]

When this comes everyone associates this type of government with fascism. Further, Heinlen meant for the form of government in the novel to be vilified, not admired.

Did he ? Can you ref that ? Not trying to start a fight, I'm just interested.

In theory, maybe. A thought exercise ....

Think of the 4-5 smartest, keenest, most ethical civilians you know.

Then, think of the 4-5 worst, scummiest, laziest, most selfish military members you've served with or are currently serving with.

Which of those groups would you prefer to have a hand in choosing the nation's political leadership? Which of them would you prefer running for office?

As a young, keen Master Corporal infantry section commander, I loved Starship Troopers. As a greying older fart, I'm seeing more shades of grey in the model Heinlein lays out

Still enjoy ST as a good read, though.

I think the context or lore of SSTs is important when framing this concept. Remember the whole global nation and federal service didn't happen spontaneously it was the fall out to major wars, global corruption and crime. The back story, IMHO, is the best part of the novel.

As to the meat of your point, the most passionate patriots I know are CAF members. They are generally the most humble and quiet about it too. While I find that our civilian citizenry is more a patriotism based on what they can take from the country, not their willingness to give.

Your 4-5 of the best and worst can be interchanged. They exist in both worlds, humans are humans. I will say I bet you find a higher percentage of people willing to give and sacrifice for the nation in the EMS and Military world than you will find on the civilian side.

The other interesting factor is SSTs isn't about national service its about the human species, hence the term Federal not National service.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Oh great, now my name and avatar are associated with a pro-China thread based on opinions I don't actually stand behind lol.

Be careful playing the devils advocate that you don't become the devil

 

[YZT580]

A fantastic idea.



Military service was the most common but there were other forms of service that one could undertake from EMS to clerical so long as you wanted to serve a job would be found for you.

The only way the Federation was allowed to deny anyone federal service is if they felt an individual was mentally incapable of understanding the oath.

but only after retirement. The Spartans had the same rule. The disadvantage to me is it reduces the gene pool of those available for government office. I am certain that you could all name an officer that you wouldn't want in government

 

[Halifax Tar]

but only after retirement. The Spartans had the same rule. The disadvantage to me is it reduces the gene pool of those available for government office. I am certain that you could all name an officer that you wouldn't want in government

I mean we get that now with our crop of politicians. Lots them I don't want anywhere near Government, but here we are.

 

[FJAG]

Military service was the most common but there were other forms of service that one could undertake from EMS to clerical so long as you wanted to serve a job would be found for you.

The only way the Federation was allowed to deny anyone federal service is if they felt an individual was mentally incapable of understanding the oath.

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Everyone had the right to do federal service but the premise of the book is that that means military service. There was the general statement that it had become fashionable to join to gain a franchise and that the government had the duty to take all able bodied people but that it couldn't accommodate everyone who volunteered in the military so alternative service was found for them. Once a person applied they had no choice as to what duty they were given. The inference is that the vast majority went into the military. But note that with respect to the non-military assignments, "we had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will either run 'em home with their tails between their legs and their terms uncompleted . . . or at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've paid a high price for it." It wasn't that you could set out to get a job as a clerk at the local Department of the Environment . . . or that you would even end up with a job like that unless you first completed a term of the nastier forms of service.

The book actually starts in a time of peace. Volunteering doesn't mean a high risk of death, but definitely individuals were accepting a term of high unpleasantness with a possibility of death in service to their society in order to gain citizenship.

In theory, maybe. A thought exercise ....

Think of the 4-5 smartest, keenest, most ethical civilians you know.

Then, think of the 4-5 worst, scummiest, laziest, most selfish military members you've served with or are currently serving with.

Which of those groups would you prefer to have a hand in choosing the nation's political leadership? Which of them would you prefer running for office?

As a young, keen Master Corporal infantry section commander, I loved Starship Troopers. As a greying older fart, I'm seeing more shades of grey in the model Heinlein lays out

Still enjoy ST as a good read, though.

You're trying to stack the deck with your example. In reality you have a cross section of society in either case - the good and the bad - the smart and the stupid. The difference is that in the case of a voluntary military where members have joined to protect the species with the potential risk of death, or at the very least endure hardship to earn citizenship, you have preselected a group that has demonstrated that they value society more than their own comfort. After that it's the law of averages as to how talented that group is. That's the basic premise that Heinlein proposes.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

There is nothing in China that the CCP accomplished, that the nationalist party could not achieved as well and with a much lower death toll. Under the CCP some 30-80 million people perished either at the direct hands of the State or due to their polices.

There are people who are beginning to doubt whether the population figures for China are based in reality and China might have suffered far greater losses from the 1 child policy and Covid.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is nothing in China that the CCP accomplished, that the nationalist party could not achieved as well and with a much lower death toll. Under the CCP some 30-80 million people perished either at the direct hands of the State or due to their polices.

There are people who are beginning to doubt whether the population figures for China are based in reality and China might have suffered far greater losses from the 1 child policy and Covid.

China's demographic collapse is well documented.

Google Search

 

[Kirkhill]

Seriously now:

We as a species haven’t progressed. We are stupid and fail to learn from history

A lifetime is round about 70 years, or just shy of three generations. Every generation invents sex. And every 70 years we get to do everything all over again.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

China's demographic collapse is well documented.

Google Search

People are now challenging the numbers that China claimed to have, which if true will make the demographic collapse happen faster, sooner and even more severe. It's likely each State Official inflated the numbers in their jurisdiction by a greater percentage than expected, with each level adding their own inflation.

 

[OldSolduer]

There is nothing in China that the CCP accomplished, that the nationalist party could not achieved as well and with a much lower death toll. Under the CCP some 30-80 million people perished either at the direct hands of the State or due to their polices.

There are people who are beginning to doubt whether the population figures for China are based in reality and China might have suffered far greater losses from the 1 child policy and Covid.

Chairman Mao once stated "if 300 million have to die so the other 300 million can eat..."

And stupid people still revere him.