Sterling

[1feral1]

Common with open bolt firng SMGs, the cartridge is actually fired before its totally chambered, called pre-ignition, and hence why you can physically see a swelled case from the back to about 1/3 up from the end of it.

This is totally normal, and can be seen on STEN, and C1 SMG's spent caseings.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Slightly away from the topic on hand but I always thought the Mk7 variant of the Sterling was pretty interesting. Brings to mind what the MP5K is to the MP5N (and family).

 

[Black Watch]

So, I see that the Sterling(C1 SMG) was a popular wpn. As i can see, it was good, reliable and easy to use. But one more question: why was it issued to signals rather than plt commander or sct commender?

 

[TCBF]

1.   It was, at one time, issued to Sect Comds, and Pl Comds carried pistols.   But, "Watch my tracer!" is a great fire control order, unavailable to to our SMG holders*.   Since Sect Comds and Pl Comds do a lot of fire control, they were given rifles.   Pl Comds will carry a rifle and a pistol, Crew Comds will carry a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

2.   Another reason: Try not to look conspicuous.

3.   Always lots of 7.62 mm around.

* Yeah, I know, there IS 9 mm tracer.   Some where on the planet.   Got a NATO Stock Number for it?   Ever seen any in Cdn stock?

 

[Bartok5]

Wes,

You will be glad to know that I still have "your" C1 SMG within my collection, along with the full EIS and spare parts kit.  The gun has been refinished, and now looks Cdn Arsenals Ltd factory-fresh    The only down-side is that unless the latest sensesless "edict" from the firearms bureaucracy can be reversed, it will be legally fired for the last time on 22 May using my final, valid Special Authority to Posses permit....

As an interesting aside, I have been able to determine that there are indeed only 3 converted-auto C1 SMGs in private hands in Canada - the one you sold me those many years ago being one of the trio.  I have tracked down the owners of the other two SMGs which were listed on the importation invoice from SIDEM.  No one else has stepped forward to claim ownership of a C1 not on that invoice.  Aside from the few additional 12(2) Full-Auto C1s still in grandfathered hands, it would seem that they are a rare Canadian collector's item indeed.

In addition to the points noted in your post above, the key difference between the C1 SMG and the British Sterling is in the method of manufacture.  In keeping with the simplified (and therefor less expensive) manufacturing techniques employed for the C1 SMG, all of the permanent receiver parts have flanges which are spot-welded to the tube.  In comparison, the Sterling has smooth, seamless welds without the flanges.  The more sophisticated (but time-consuming and needless) welding employed on the Sterling gives the C1 a much more "utilitarian" appearance when the two are compared side-by each.  The C1 SMG also employs more sheet-metal stampings than the Sterling does - the Trigger Mechanism Housing being one case in point. 

The C1 SMGs / Sterlings are great little sub-guns, and are unquestionably one of the best (if not the best) 2nd-generation SMG designs.  Having said that, they are now decidedly obsolete in the context of military service for all of the reasons previously noted.  Even within the SMG genre, the C1/Sterling design must accede to the more refined 3rd-generation (telescoping bolt) and 4th generation (system-based) designs.  The Uzi would be the most prolific of the 3rd-gen designs resulting in a more compact package due to 2/3 of the barrel length being contained within the "over-hung" bolt.  The ubiquitous MP-5 is the best-known (and most popular) of the 4th gen designs, featuring extensive commonality of handling drills, parts, and accessories with its rifle-calibre siblings.  Owning both an Uzi and an MP-5, I would unquestionably choose to carry either of those in preference to a C1 SMG or Sterling. 

Just my $.02 CAD....

Mark C   

 

[medicineman]

I miss the old go fast guns - certainly alot easier to bring to bear in the tight confines of an ambulance cab, don't get in the way as much when looking after sick people, and just plain simple to shoot and maintain.  They're also fun for close quarters use - toss it into a room, and let it rock and roll.

MM

 

[TCBF]

"They're also fun for close quarters use - toss it into a room, and let it rock and roll."

Oh, No, not this again!  :

Slim, you must be laughing your head off!

 

[Freddy Chef]

...Still a great piece of kit though...It always blows me away to see the Stormtroopers using the Sterling with optical sights on it. Does anyone know what the larger weapons were that they had in the dessert? (Tatooine)

Optical sights were just for the LCF, Lucas does that well.

The larger weapons? MG-42's by the looks of them. (Going by the original trilogy, that is.)

 

[1feral1]

Good to hear, Mark. I do remember our gathering (Jack, Craig, me, you) at a rifle range near Edmonton on my first trip back to Canada in late 1997. Hard to believe that was almost 8 yrs ago.

That C1 SMG came out of Zaire if I remember correctly, thru Wilkie.

Is this CA shooting ban a Canada wide thing?


Cheers,

Wes

 

[TCBF]

Wes,

The govmint says that Bill C10A has removed their ability to legally issue SAPs for taking Prohibs to the range.  Bill C10A does not say that at all, and a Library of Parliament Research Paper backs us up. C10A limits ATTs, not SAPs.  Bunfight.  My SAP ends 29 May, after that, my two FN C1A1 s and my three Lithgow L1A1 s dont get happy any more.  Some SAPs go to 31 Dec 05.  It's one big MCF.

Stay tuned.

Fired 50 rounds from my 10 mm DE Tue night.  A pleasant evening.

 

[1feral1]

So, its Canada wide? Pretty bloody sad, and just what are they trying to do? too bad you did not live on a farm.


Cheers,

Wes

 

[TCBF]

We all know what they are trying to do. Disarm Canada.  But, that's another thread.

 

[Black Watch]

ok, I didn't know that this thread would be that hot. It was for info. However, why SMG was so popular with signals?

 

[Michael OLeary]

However, why SMG was so popular with signals?

It wasn't a matter of 'popularity' with the signallers, the SMG was the designated weapon for the platoon signaller. Most likely selected as such because it was smaller and lighter than the service rifle (the FN C1) and gave the signaller more flexibility in handling his radio. Perhaps one of the signallers on the forum can give some insight into the radios in use leading up to and during the SMG's service years to present an idea of the signaller's responsibilities and combat load.

 

[Black Watch]

realy??? But how was the FNC1? I only have experience on the C7 or the C9

 

[Michael OLeary]

A good rifle for its day, heavy and solid with a good punch in 7.62 calibre. Try this thread for a wide range of comments and opinions:

The FN C1 - Service Rifle of the Past (and C7A1 vs FN C1A1)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22220.0.html

 

[1feral1]

Canada was the first country to adopt and mass produce the rifle, followed by the UK and Australia. The C1 and L1 are of the 'inch pattern' design and differ very slightly from one another with all parts interchanging, many as complete components only, smaller parts are identical.

It was rifle that you could butt-stroke someone with, and not worry about the rifle breaking.

Today the L1A1 is still in service in other countries (usually former British colonies, and Commonwealth nations, or where there was/is British influence) throughout the world, but as for the C1A1, well, as far as I know it was used only by the CF, RCMP, and some regional Police within Canada. Samples were sold to other countries, as I have seen at least two here in Australia alone, and I am sure the UK has some also.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[redleafjumper]

The Sterling Mk 4 police carbine (and SMG) is one of my favourite firearms.  I find it to be a much more solidly constructed firearm than the C1 SMG as it is more machined and not stamped as much..  It isn't CA, as it was made with a semi-auto trigger pack and as the letter from Dagenham says, "not converted".  The old SMGs were a very great piece of kit - George Patchett's baby was the state of the art in advanced primer ignition.  Apparently the reason that the Sten mags fit in Sterlings but not vice versa was purely and simply that the manufacturers wanted people to buy Sterling to replace the Stens and not just replace the Sten mags with Sterling ones - the Sten mags are notoriously difficult to reload (a loading tool that was issued helps) while the Sterling mags are a dream in comparison.

The Sterlings are reliable in difficult conditions (I have used the C1 in winter exercises down to minus 54 degrees without any problems) and surprisingly accurate for a firearm that fires from an open bolt.  A truly excellent book on the Sterlings from Collector Grade Publications is called:  The Guns of Dagenham: Lanchester, Patchett, Sterling.  It is by Peter Laidler and David Howroyd.  If you are as I am, a fan of these handy little weapons then you really need that book.  It has good sections on Sterlings from around the world, including the Canadian C1. 
Like others, I prefer the British mags as they are much better made, even if they didn't fit in the Canadian mag pouches.  I have also fired the MP5 and it was nice, but I still prefer the Sterling - I am probably being a bit of a romantic here, but the MP5 strikes me as being more susceptible to problems with dirt and extreme conditions, and besides you can get closer to the ground with that sterling side mag.  Perhaps others who have used the MP5 and the Sterling more than I can comment; likely there is already a thread that covers the topic.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They were a great piece of kit. Safe and dependable. Simple, stupid to train on and use. Capable and robust. Safe as any other firearm when learned on and used properly. During trials they were drenched, frozen and buried in a variety of substances, and never failed. Cheap to manufacture and maintain. Used a common NATO round, and could take the overloaded 9mm we produced. There was no need to replace them, outside of political considerations. They can still hold there own today and would still be effective. 500 rounds per minute? It only takes one or two of the hot 9mm they used to put someone down. They were perfect for overloaded Sig types, Infanteers and vehicle crews. Biggest problem I see in bringing them back, is that IVI can't, and I doubt ever will, be able to produce quality ammunition to feed them. Same as the rest of the crap that they provide to us, by way of our Gov't contracts. Offer me the chance to carry one again as an Armoured Crewman, and I'll....... OK we won't go there. In most cases we didn't carry it as an assault weapon. It was used for defence, lots of big rounds laid down fast. Used and handled properly, it was hard for the bad guy to grab because of the size and carry. Quick to bring into action, reload, if needed and cleared relatively easy if jammed. What's not to like about it?

BTW, a Sten MAY drop a whole mag, if you toss it into a room, depending how it lands. A Sterling or C1 SMG won't (barring a mechanical failure) due to design of the sear and trigger mech (safety). Besides, who in their right mind would throw their primary weapon away? Better HOPE it does clear the room, and you can recover it. As opposed to the bad guy killing you with your own issue. DUH!

 

[Black Watch]

OK this htread is popular. According to many documents I red, all three branches were using it: army for armoured crw memebers, navy for bording parties and RCAF for air force police (I have a pic of my uncle standing by the ammo dump at RCAF station St-Hubert, qc) But could annyone tell me more about the open bold thing?