Sterling
- Thread starter Black Watch
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It is a great dis-service to George Patchett and the engineers at Dagenham to imply that the Sterling's reliable trigger system and the Ruffel pattern Canadian trigger would fail like that of the Sten gun when dropped or tossed when that failing is something that they were precisely designed to prevent. While mechanical parts can fail, it would be a great surprise to me that a Sterling would disharge its entire mag when tossed into a room. I do prefer the British built magazines to the Canadian ones, the British ones just seem to feed better, as well as hold more rounds.
The Sterling C1, or Mark 4 if you prefer, with its fixed firing pin is state of the art in advanced primer ignition (API) and a very reliable as well as accurate firearm.
The Sterling C1, or Mark 4 if you prefer, with its fixed firing pin is state of the art in advanced primer ignition (API) and a very reliable as well as accurate firearm.
Lance Wiebe
Sr. Member
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Redleafjumper, I couldn't agree more!
The SMG could fire off a round unintentionally. Notice the "a" before round. With the action forward, the bolt could be forced backward by a sharp enough blow, far enough to pick up a round and fire it. After the first round, however, the bolt would recoil far enough to engage the sear. There was at least one fatality caused by this, in 1970.
The SMG would not, could not, empty its mag with nobody pulling the trigger, barring a catastrophic and total breakdown of the trigger mechanism. Also, the British mags were superior to ours in terms of reliability, ours were cheaper, and it showed.
The SMG could fire off a round unintentionally. Notice the "a" before round. With the action forward, the bolt could be forced backward by a sharp enough blow, far enough to pick up a round and fire it. After the first round, however, the bolt would recoil far enough to engage the sear. There was at least one fatality caused by this, in 1970.
The SMG would not, could not, empty its mag with nobody pulling the trigger, barring a catastrophic and total breakdown of the trigger mechanism. Also, the British mags were superior to ours in terms of reliability, ours were cheaper, and it showed.
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Exactly what I said on Page 3. Round and round we go! ;D
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As an FYI, there were also certain lots of 9mm Cdn Mk1 that could result in double taps (when the weapon was on repetition). Don't have the blue sheets infront of me so I can't give the exact cause but it was from some (not all) lots.
I do know that some trigger mechs were quite worn. In 1990 a fellow standing next to me had an AD when he cocked his SMG. It may or may not have been on safe, but that still doesn't excuse the three round burst of blank that happened when he released the cocking handle. I know he didn't have his finger on the trigger though.
I do know that some trigger mechs were quite worn. In 1990 a fellow standing next to me had an AD when he cocked his SMG. It may or may not have been on safe, but that still doesn't excuse the three round burst of blank that happened when he released the cocking handle. I know he didn't have his finger on the trigger though.
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Lance Wiebe said:
The C1 SMG when the changer lever was to 'S', locked the bolt in the forward position to avoid any ADs, but if the change lever was at R or A, with the bolt closed and rds in the mag, yes a sharp blow would enable the bolt to go back by inertia, sometimes far enough to spick up a rd, and fire it, then re-cock itself waiting to dischargge antoerh rd.
As I have mentioned in another post, the trigger mechs for the Cdn C1 and the UK L3A3 are two different things, and interchange only as complete components in each wpn.
As for advanced primer ignition, basically all open bolt firing SMGs with fixedd firing pins have this, including the STEN. The ctg is fired before being seated fully into the chamber.
Cheers,
Wes
C
CH1
Guest
As to adressing muzzle climb, Why on God's green earth did this person forget his auto wpns drill?
Wesley, correct me if I'm wrong, but sop's for auto wpns, was to squeeze & release in bursts, not hold till mag is MT. It's hard enough to support auto wpns in the field, not ot mention BBl heat, muzzle climb, etc.
It's been a long day since the day of watching .50 rnds go up the spout, & melting down BBLs.
There was a question about 9mm trace. It used to be quite common in Canada. For fun, against RO's, we used to even put the odd 1 thru the Hi-power (not advisable). Last ones I used, were on an open house demo, in the Patchett @ CFS beaverlodge.
Cheers
Wesley, correct me if I'm wrong, but sop's for auto wpns, was to squeeze & release in bursts, not hold till mag is MT. It's hard enough to support auto wpns in the field, not ot mention BBl heat, muzzle climb, etc.
It's been a long day since the day of watching .50 rnds go up the spout, & melting down BBLs.
There was a question about 9mm trace. It used to be quite common in Canada. For fun, against RO's, we used to even put the odd 1 thru the Hi-power (not advisable). Last ones I used, were on an open house demo, in the Patchett @ CFS beaverlodge.
Cheers
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Short bursts, three to five rds, no more. Anything longer than that would get you spanked by the RSO/RCO without hesitation.
Most of a standard range prac was on R anyways, with a few bursts on A, and up close 25M or less, but the wpn was designed for close range personal protection anyways, like a pistol, even though one could get rds on NATO Fig 11's at 100 metres if he tried and the wpn was zeroed to him.
For history's sake the front sight used on the CAL designed C1 SMG was the same on the rifles C1 and C2, and the adjusting screw was the same one used for the arctic trigger guard on the rifle also.
I still have a 1970's dated SMG pam (thick green covered one) in my 'pam' library, which has all the range pracs still in it, and all the other info too. Simialr to the same type for the C1 and C2 rifles, remember the one that has the bayonet drills in it ;D
As for the UK 34rd (not 32) mags, these did NOT appear in the CF supply system until the last few yrs when the C1 SMG was still in service. The Cdn 30rd mags stocks (reserves/war stock etc) were depleted, so units would end up with Cdn 10, 30, and 34 rd mags the CF had obtained from the UK. Before that anyone with UK mags had obtained them thru the UK system by either trading or scrounging or 'off beat' issue.
None of the mag parts wre interchangeable, and had to be used as complete components only. However another freaky C1/Sterling fact. STEN 32rd mags would fit in the Sterling, but Sterling mags of any size would NOT fit into the STEN. I may have mentioned this before somewhere on here.
Cheers,
Wes
Most of a standard range prac was on R anyways, with a few bursts on A, and up close 25M or less, but the wpn was designed for close range personal protection anyways, like a pistol, even though one could get rds on NATO Fig 11's at 100 metres if he tried and the wpn was zeroed to him.
For history's sake the front sight used on the CAL designed C1 SMG was the same on the rifles C1 and C2, and the adjusting screw was the same one used for the arctic trigger guard on the rifle also.
I still have a 1970's dated SMG pam (thick green covered one) in my 'pam' library, which has all the range pracs still in it, and all the other info too. Simialr to the same type for the C1 and C2 rifles, remember the one that has the bayonet drills in it ;D
As for the UK 34rd (not 32) mags, these did NOT appear in the CF supply system until the last few yrs when the C1 SMG was still in service. The Cdn 30rd mags stocks (reserves/war stock etc) were depleted, so units would end up with Cdn 10, 30, and 34 rd mags the CF had obtained from the UK. Before that anyone with UK mags had obtained them thru the UK system by either trading or scrounging or 'off beat' issue.
None of the mag parts wre interchangeable, and had to be used as complete components only. However another freaky C1/Sterling fact. STEN 32rd mags would fit in the Sterling, but Sterling mags of any size would NOT fit into the STEN. I may have mentioned this before somewhere on here.
Cheers,
Wes
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The reason for the lack of magazine interchangeability was that since the Sterling magazine was such a tremendous improvement over the STEN mag, the folks at Dagenham were afraid that armies with STENs would just buy new Sterling mags to use in old STENS and not new Sterlings. Conversely, they wanted people to see the Sterling as more flexible than the STEN, so the Sterling was, as Wesley stated, designed to take the STEN mags.
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It may be unprofessional, but I loved the Stirling. That was the neatest toy the CF ever gave me to play with. The FN was a better weapon, and yes when the C7 came out you could get better accuracy with a similar fire rate, but I will always love the Stirling. You could fire it like a pistol, for a 3 round burst it was rock steady, the recoil on it may as well have been from a pellet gun. It had barely more moving parts than a brick, and you could abuse the heck out of it and it would still fire (except that one notable gentleman who left his on the pavement for the M113 to run over). It was the most fun of all the weapons I've ever used. Its accuracy was better than a pistol, but I always thought that the 200m sight was really gilding the lilly. The CF introduced far deadlier submachine guns before I got out, but none of them were as much fun as the Stirling. PS- anybody else do the beer can drill? The one where you shoot below the beer can so the gravel chases the beer can up the hill, but without popping the can? Like I said, it was a fun little toy, and great for close quarters.
C
CH1
Guest
Ah! For the days when there was ammo to play with. Used to chase cans with both FN's, & on occasion when nobody was looking the .30 GPMG. Oh yeah don't forget cutting firewood.
What a rush!
Cheers
What a rush!
Cheers
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all it takes is a very very dirty weapon, then the sear cant engage......
I have had it happen with a .22 semi-auto
see hear the results of a dirty or broken sear
[Moderator edit - not an appropriate link]
the look in his eyes.............priceless
I have had it happen with a .22 semi-auto
see hear the results of a dirty or broken sear
[Moderator edit - not an appropriate link]
the look in his eyes.............priceless
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Frankie said:
Frankie,
No offence, but I call utter bull-shite. If any member of the CF within my sphere of influence ever allowed a C1 SMG to become so filthy that it suffered a catastrophic failure of the trigger mechanism, then that soldier would have been in a serious world of hurt. It would take quite literally unfathomable volumes of fire under field conditions to render the trigger mech on a C1 SMG unreliable due to fouling (vice parts wear). The only time I personally came close (in 6 years of using an issued SMG) was in Yakima in the early 1980's after Mount St Helens had blown and the training area was covered in abrasive volcanic ask. A helicopter rotor-wash would blow all kinds of unwelcome grit into a weapon's working parts. Even under those conditions, the trigger mech of my C1 SMG never failed. True, the bolt would not slam forward when the trigger was pressed (it ground to a halt half-way forward), but the trigger mech was fine. After all, there was only 1/4" of access around the receiver's sear cut for fouling to enter the trigger mechanism.
Some folks here seem to be confusing personal C1 SMG experience with unsubstantiated wives-tales concerning the "c@ck and throw" Sten SMG. Even the notion that you could c@ck the latter and throw it into a room expecting a trigger mechanism failure and a 30-round "party favour" are patently ludicrous. I own a Canadian Long Branch Sten Mk 2, and it's trigger mechanism is utterly reliable. The sear is rock-solid.
This business of slamming the butt-stock of a C1 SMG on the ground and having the bolt travel back under inertia just enough to pick up a round from the mag and fire it? Absolutely true. BUT - only if you were such a poorly trained idiot that you did not engage the "Safe" setting on the trigger mech, which would infallibly lock the bolt in either the forward (closed) or rear (open) positions. In other words, the ONLY way that the C1 SMG could unintentionally fire from a closed bolt (eg. loaded/made ready) is if the operator was sufficiently dense or untrained that the selector switch were not properly placed on "Safe" IAW the extant handling drills.
In summary, there was NOTHING unsafe about the C1 SMG other than ill-trained operators. Full-stop. I happen to personally own one, and had the pleasure of carrying one on repeated occasions during my 6 years in the Reserves. It was a fine 2nd Generation SMG. The only "accidents" that I ever saw were a sole function of user inadequacy.
For what it's worth....
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Mark C said:
...Thus endeth the lesson...
And to think, it only took us 5 pages to get to this point!!!
blake
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mudgunner49 said:
Yeah Blake but it was a nice stroll down memory lane for some of us old farts. ;D
Mark, small world must have just missed you in Yakima, I was there doing the final part of my Mortar course there just before Mount St Helen's blew.
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Unless I missed it, anyone make the mistake of utilising the "winter" trigger?
Waiting to drive onto a dog and pony, thought I'd rest my SMG on my lap...thank God for Blanks.
Almost became a Tropperette.
Stupid is as Stupid does...
Luckily my RSM lookin for Blood bought "the Iltis Backfired bit." ;D
Waiting to drive onto a dog and pony, thought I'd rest my SMG on my lap...thank God for Blanks.
Almost became a Tropperette.
Stupid is as Stupid does...Luckily my RSM lookin for Blood bought "the Iltis Backfired bit." ;D
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The Stirling SMG is a beautiful weapon, and I loved using it. It was an idiot simple utterly reliable weapon system when it came to firing. When it came to not firing, its safety had its blond moments. You could always rely on the Stirling to fire when you wanted it to. You could rely on the Stirling not to fire when on safe unless you a) dropped it, b)drove over a bump c)dropped prone d)had broken a mirror in the last seven years and/or incurred the wrath of the RSM in the last month. When the Stirling decided to have a blond moment, you get to find out what a randomly directed 9mm can do for curing boredom, attracting attention from enemy troops and the (more dangerous) senior NCOs.
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