• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Su-30's capabilities

MarkOttawa

Army.ca Fixture
Inactive
Fallen Comrade
Reaction score
147
Points
710
Any thoughts on this?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0212/p04s01-woeu.htm

Russia is already supplying India with the Sukhoi-30MKI, an advanced "fourth generation" warplane that consistently defeats its Western counterparts, such as the frontline US fighters, the F-15C and F-16. Versions of the Su-30 are also being sold to China, Venezuela, and Malaysia.

And 2009?

Last month Mr. Putin offered to partner with India to build a futuristic "fifth generation" fighter plane, which Russian designers is already under development and could be flying as early as 2009. Only the US has so far managed to field one of these new era combat jets – which have breakthrough capabilities of stealthiness, supersonic cruising, ultramaneuverability and over-the-horizon electronic visibility. And at $260 million per model, the new F/A-22 Raptor is by far the world's most expensive warplane.

As for the F-22:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/57358.0.html

Mark
Ottawa

 
• Russia is already supplying India with the Sukhoi-30MKI, an advanced "fourth generation" warplane that consistently defeats its Western counterparts, such as the frontline US fighters, the F-15C and F-16. Versions of the Su-30 are also being sold to China, Venezuela, and Malaysia.

My understanding is this is total BS.  Specifically, that the exercises in India in which the Indian Su-30's triumphed put such a ridiculous set of restrictions on the American F-15's as to be absurd.  Most voices I've heard indicate this was intentional in order to grab headlines to justify the purchase of the F-22.

Further, based on a former F-15 pilot I know, I think the F-22 is so far superior to anything else that will get into the air in the next 20 years that it will provide absolute deterence that no one will even try to attempt in any way to fight the United States in a conventional war.  In my humble opinion, unless the United States does start holding sponsor nations responsible for the actions of their proxies, this may actually may the world a far more dangerous place for the United States going forward, rather than less that was the orginal intention.

Regarding Russia, I believe Putin is trying to re-establish a greater Russia and he cares not for the impact on anyone but Russians.  He is trying to create a natural gas cartel to feed (and starve) Europe and will sell anyone in the world weapons as long as the purchaser is not immediately planning on targeting Russia with those weapons.  In the long-run, he faces two very real problems.  In the south, he has a large number of muslims who I think are generally heading on a dangerous track.  In the east, the Chinese are unofficially emigrating 500,000 people per year into the mostly uninhabited Russian hinterlands. It would not surprise me to see within 25-30 years a Chinese 'democratic' effort to peel off part of the eastern resource zone and add it to the PRC's landholdings.


Matthew.  :salute:
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Regarding Russia, I believe Putin is trying to re-establish a greater Russia and he cares not for the impact on anyone but Russians.  He is trying to create a natural gas cartel to feed (and starve) Europe and will sell anyone in the world weapons as long as the purchaser is not immediately planning on targeting Russia with those weapons.  In the long-run, he faces two very real problems.  In the south, he has a large number of muslims who I think are generally heading on a dangerous track.  In the east, the Chinese are unofficially emigrating 500,000 people per year into the mostly uninhabited Russian hinterlands. It would not surprise me to see within 25-30 years a Chinese 'democratic' effort to peel off part of the eastern resource zone and add it to the PRC's landholdings.


Matthew.   :salute:

Me tends to agree with your analysis of a future "Greater Russia" as this is a very, very long time tradition since Catherine the Great and the first Russian foray into Afganistan. But as Russia a closed socity still he can do want he wants with the muslims to a certain extent. When world opinion goes against him he will play the new buzz word "terrorists" and get away with a little more. As for the unoffical northern chinese migration that has been going on for quite a while too, not really a big surprise. The selling of weapons will eventually bite him in the ass as it already has a couple of times on smaller scales. The big question though is to watch where all the money from resources is going to go. If he does not put some into rasing the standard of the average citizen he could be out of office. But yes I think alot will go into defense and aircraft development is expensive and I do not think the Indians have that cash either. Which by the way India has also from time to time looked northward. One the otherhand an Indo-Russian alliance could be a warning to China. It is hard to fight a war on two different fronts. I think there have been just as many Indo-China clashes as Sino-Soviet clashes. One reason India has nuc's even before the Pakistan question is China.
 
Mark,

Not sure if you've already read this, but RAAF Vice-Marshal Peter Criss, ret. made much the same argument (threat of fifth-generation Russian aircraft) last October, when he advocated the purchase of F-22s (over F-35s) for the RAAF (quite a bit of interesting info, including in related D.I.D. links):
Whether the JSF is actually cheaper than the F-22 is irrelevant, since the JSF is not capable of doing the job in near and wider regions awash with advanced Russian fighters.

The fundamental point must be that no matter how many JSFs are procured, if the aircraft cannot guarantee control of the regional battlespace, then what utility does it have for the ADF?
  http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/11/avm-criss-does-groupthink-power-australias-jsf/index.php (about 2/3rds of the way down).

Also, I think that the "$260 million" F-22 cost is an exaggeration: according to the GAO (from both www.fas.org and www.globalsecurity.org) it is more like $92 million: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm
 
It is strange when one sees $ values for military equipment the amount ususally includes training equipment and costs, replacement parts, service packages and lifetime maintenance and operation costs. Could you imagine if we did that when we bought a new car? We would all shat ourselves and get a used bike instead!
 
Excerpts for an AW&ST article on Exercise "Cope India" (2004):

3rd Wing Explains 'Cope India' Exercise
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-cope-india-article02.html

The losing performance of F-15Cs in simulated air-to-air combat against the Indian air force this year is being perceived by some, both in the U.S. and overseas, as a weakening of American capabilities, and it is generating taunts from within the competitive U.S. fighter community.

The Cope India exercise also seemingly shocked some in Congress and the Pentagon who used the event to renew the call for modernizing the U.S. fighter force with stealthy F/A-22s and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: None of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs was equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.

These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF's airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose. Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India's top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots...

Generally the combat scenario was to have four F-15s flying at any time against about 12 Indian aircraft. While the U.S. pilots normally train to four versus 12, that takes into account at least two of the U.S. aircraft having AESA radar and being able to make the first, beyond-visual-range shots. For the exercise, both sides restricted long-range shots.

"That's what the Indians wanted to do," Snowden says. "That [handicap] really benefits a numerically superior force because you can't whittle away some of their force at long range. They were simulating active missiles [including] AA-12s." This means the missile has its own radar transmitter and doesn't depend on the launch aircraft's radar after launch. With the older AA-10 Alamo, the launching fighter has to keep its target illuminated with radar so the U.S. pilots would know when they were being targeted. But with the AA-12, they didn't know if they had been targeted. The Mirage 2000s carried the active Mica missile. Aerospace industry officials said that some of the radars the U.S. pilots encountered, including that of the Mirage 2000s, exhibited different characteristics than those on standard versions of the aircraft.

The U.S. pilots used no active missiles, and the AIM-120 Amraam capability was limited to a 20-naut.-mi. range while keeping the target illuminated when attacking and 18 naut. mi. when defending, as were all the missiles in the exercise.

"When we saw that they were a more professional air force, we realized that within the constraints of the exercise we were going to have a very difficult time," Snowden [3rd Wing's chief of air-to-air tactics] says. "In general, it looked like they ran a broad spectrum of tactics and they were adaptive. They would analyze what we were doing and then try something else. They weren't afraid to bring the strikers in high or low. They would move them around so that we could never anticipate from day to day what we were going to see."

The IAF did not fly its top-end Su-30MKI aircrafts, instead the older un-upgraded Su-30MKs and Su-30Ks of the 24 Sqn...

And excerpts on "Cope India" in 2005:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html

The exercises had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides, which means that both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost. Yet, observers say that in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out the winners...

Military experts say the joint exercises occurred at a time when America's fighter jet prowess is slipping. Since the US victories in the first Gulf War, a war dependent largely on air power, the Russians and French have improved the aviation electronics (avionics) and weapons capabilities of their Sukhoi and Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft. These improvements have given countries like India, which use the Sukhois and Mirages, a rough parity with US fighter planes like the F-16 and F-15C. China, too, now has 400 late-model Sukhois.

Yet, while the Indian Air Force designed the exercises to India's advantage - forcing pilots to fight "within visual range" rather than using America's highly advanced "beyond visual range" sensing equipment [emphasis added] - both observers and participants admit that Indian aircraft and personnel performed much better than expected.

The Su-30 MKI "is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability," Capt. Martin Mentch told an Air Force publication, AFPN. Maneuverability is key for missions of visual air combat...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Back
Top