Sudden questions regarding LAV III and roll-overs

[Baloo]

Military vehicle in fatal accident has history of rollovers
Last Updated Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:44:21 EST
CBC News

Questions are being raised about the safety of a military vehicle after one Canadian soldier was killed and four others were injured in an accident in Afghanistan Thursday.

    * INDEPTH: Afghanistan

24-year-old Private Braun Scott Woodfield of Eastern Passage, Nova Scotia(Courtesy DND)

The light armoured vehicle, called a LAV III, rolled over at 6 p.m. local time on a highway that connects Kabul with Kandahar, near the village of Laghman.

"It was a road accident, a single-vehicle accident," said Deputy Chief of Defence Staff Lt.-Gen. Marc Dumais.

In the six years the LAV III has been in use, two other Canadian soldiers have died in 10 rollover accidents. As recently as September, a 24-year-old Quebec soldier died when one of the vehicles rolled into a river during a nighttime training exercise in Alberta.

Last year in Bosnia, two Canadians were injured when their LAV III rolled into a ravine.

Documents obtained by CBC through Access to Information laws show the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers.

A two-page briefing memo written in 2004 said the LAV III is limited in the type of terrain it can handle.

The note said it is especially prone to tipping on ground with an angle of 30 degrees or greater, and should be driven in the centre of roads in countries with poor highway systems, where edges of roads tend to be prone to breaking away under heavy weights.

Despite those concerns, retired major general Lewis MacKenzie called the LAV III "an outstanding armoured personnel carrier" that has saved "a multitude of lives" because of the protection it offers from landmines and enemy fire in combat zones.

During an interview with CBC Newsworld Friday, MacKenzie compared it to SUVs, which are more prone to rollovers than passenger cars because of a higher centre of gravity.

Dead soldier was from Nova Scotia

The soldier who died in Thursday's rollover has been identified as Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield, 24, from Eastern Passage, N.S.

The four injured soldiers are:

    * Sgt. Tony Nelson McIver, 31, from McAdam, N.B.
    * Cpl. Shane Dean Jones, 30, from White Rock, B.C.
    * Pte. Paul Schavo, 24, from London, Ont.
    * Cpl. James Edward McDonald, 32, from Pembroke, Ont.,

None received life-threatening injuries, but three were seriously injured.

All the soldiers were from the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment, based out of Gagetown, N.B.

Officials say they don't yet know what the weather conditions were at the time of the rollover, only that it would have been dark outside.

House of Commons observes silence

MPs rose in the House of Commons for a moment of silence to honour the soldiers and their families, while the prime minister spoke from Kelowna, B.C., where he is attending the first ministers conference.
LAV III armoured vehicle (AP file photo)

"I wish to convey to the families, particularly the family of Pte. Woodfield, our sympathy and our deep regret," said Paul Martin.

"A family has lost a treasured friend loved one and we have lost a superb soldier and a member of our regimental family," said Lt. Col. Robert Walker of CFB Gagetown.

Eighth Canadian soldier killed

Woodfield is the eighth Canadian soldier to die in Afghanistan since 2002.

The others were:

    * Cpl. Jamie Brendan Murphy, killed by a suicide bomber near the Canadian base near Kabul on Jan. 27, 2004.
    * Sgt. Robert Alan Short and Cpl. Robbie Christopher Beerenfenger, who died on Oct. 2, 2003 when a roadside bomb went off as their jeep patrolled southwest of Kabul.
    * Sgt. Marc D. Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Nathan Smith, and Pte. Richard Green, who were killed when a U.S. fighter jet dropped a bomb on them near Kandahar on April 18, 2002.

Roughly 250 Canadian soldiers are part of a provincial reconstruction team (PRT) in and around Kandahar.

As many as 1,250 Canadian soldiers will be serving in Afghanistan by February 2006.

In early October, a suicide car bomb exploded near a Canadian patrol near Kandahar, injuring three soldiers. A number of Afghan civilians were killed in the blast.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/25/afghan-death051125.html

Ah, yes. Now the LAV IIIs are coming under scrutiny. I wonder when this will end, until each piece of equipment we use is not longer safe.

RIP Braun.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You know the media loves to stick it to us like this everytime a tagedty like this happens. Look at at every plane crash, boating accident and car crash that happens every day. I think all and all we are lucky the military is not a victim of this sort of thing more often.

 

[career_radio-checker]

I really hate that. When Jamie Murphy (RIP) was killed, they portrayed it as the iltis' fault and not the suicide bomber. When will they (the media) start calling a 'turnip' -- a 'turnip'.

 

[Baloo]

CTV.ca is now carrying the controversy over the LAV-III. I just hope this does not explode.

Vehicle safety questioned after soldier's death

CTV.ca News Staff

An investigation is underway after a Canadian solider was killed and four others injured in a vehicle accident during a routine patrol in Afghanistan.

Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield, 24, was killed when the light armoured vehicle in which he was travelling rolled over Thursday on a highway that connects Kabul with Kandahar.

"It was the result of an accident," Defence Minister Bill Graham told reporters Thursday.

However, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, is now being called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers.

There have been 10 rollover accidents in the six years the vehicle had been in use.

A 24-year-old Quebec soldier, Pte. Patrick Dessureault, died earlier this year when a LAV-III rolled over into a river during a training exercise in Alberta.

And last year, two Canadians were injured when their LAV rolled into a ravine in Bosnia.

However, Scott Taylor, of Esprit de Corps magazine, told CTV's Canada AM that he did not believe "the vehicle was to blame whatsoever" in the latest incident.

"This is one of the best pieces of kit that they've got in the Army," he said Friday.

"They will be looking at all kinds of angles on this. Was the driver fatigued? Was the driver qualified? Was the vehicle properly maintained?"

Colonel Steve Noonan, commander of Canadian forces in Afghanistan, told CTV's Canada AM that he had "launched an investigation to find out what exactly transpired," but declined to elaborate on the details of the incident.

Pte. Woodfield, from Eastern Passage, N.S., had been serving in Afghanistan since August.

The four other Canadian soldiers involved in the accident were taken to hospital with non life-threatening injuries.

They were identified as:

    * Sgt. Tony Nelson McIver, 31, of Fredericton, N.B.
    * Cpl. James Edward McDonald, 32, of Pembroke, Ont.
    * Cpl. Shane Dean Jones, 30, of White Rock, B.C.
    * Pte. Paul Schavo, 24, of London, Ont.

Colonel Noonan told AM that McIver and McDonald had both since been released from hospital.

"Corporal Jones and Private Schavo are certainly stable and they will be moving up to Bagram Air Force Base for a scan as both received head injuries," he added.

All the soldiers were from the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment, based out of Gagetown, N.B.

Officials say they don't yet know what the weather conditions or visibility were like at the time of the rollover, only that at 6 p.m it would have been dark outside.

MPs rose in the House of Commons for a moment of silence Thursday to honour the soldiers and their families, while Prime Minister Paul Martin commented from Kelowna, B.C., where he is attending the First Nations conference.

"I just want to say to the families of the soldiers, and in particular the family of Private Woodfield, how deeply in sorrow the Canadian people are," said Martin.

Pte. Woodfield is the eighth Canadian to die in Afghanistan since Canada first sent soldiers into Afghanistan in 2002. Four died by friendly fire, two by anti-tank mines and one at the hand of a suicide bomber.

Some 250 Canadian troops are currently in Kandahar as part of a provincial reconstruction team (PRT). Ottawa is in the process of shifting its military presence from the capital Kabul to the more volatile southern region of Kandahar.

By February 2006, about 2,000 Canadian soldiers will be based in Kandahar and a Canadian general will take command of a multi-national force to fight insurgents.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/afghanistan_soldier_051125/20051125?hub=TopStories

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I really hate that. When Jamie Murphy (RIP) was killed, they portrayed it as the iltis' fault and not the suicide bomber. When will they (the media) start calling a 'turnip' -- a 'turnip'.

Just as soon as calling a turnip "a turnip" sells more commercial time, I guess.  *shrugs*  They play their games, we play ours.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Understand frustration with media - we can only control what we tell the media, not what they write.

 

[Allen]

Considering high rate of usage of the LAV III, 10 rollovers in 6 years does not seem outrageously high. To my mind at least.

Incidentally, none of the TV news coverage that I have watched seems to be able to identify a LAV III. Most of the time they show a Bison or Coyote.

 

[George Wallace]

I find these quotes to be very common to life in general:

However, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, is now being called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers.
There have been 10 rollover accidents in the six years the vehicle had been in use.

Yesterdays, first heavy snowfall of the year, proved "the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III automobile, is now being called into question after a media report claimed the army city's drivers had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers collisions.
There have been 10 rollover over 123 accidents in the six years first six hours this morning that the vehicle(s) had been in use have been on city streets.

"They will be looking at all kinds of angles on this. Was the driver fatigued? Was the driver qualified? Was the vehicle properly maintained?"

"They OPP and City Police will be looking at all kinds of angles on this. Was the driver fatigued? Was the driver qualified? Was the vehicle properly maintained?"

Anyway, we all know that the majority of vehicle accidents in winter are a result of driving too fast for conditions.   That really can be applied anywhere, not just to the LAV III.   Another question, though, may be the comments of people who have never driven a large vehicle, nor the vehicle in question, on CTV's Canada AM that they did not believe "the vehicle was to blame whatsoever" in the latest incident.   To comment in such a way before the investigation is over is ridiculous.   There have been problems with vehicles before.   There have also been several instances of Strykers and LAV IIIs being too heavy for roads and the roadway has collapsed.   For an inexperienced "Expert" to make statements like this to the National Media is outrageous.

 

[Brad Sallows]

For fuck's sakes.  A flatbed tractor-trailer with a full load of 2x4s will rollover if the road collapses, the driver takes a curve at too high a speed, etc.  I've seen the "hardwood highway" aftermath several times on BC highways on routes I travel less than a handful of times a year, which says something about the frequency with which it occurs.  The chattering fools with a microphone or a column need to get a grip and stop shitting their collective pants every time an accident occurs.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

I knew this would happen as soon as I heard about the accident.... now we wait for the million dollar inquiries and inspections/reviews of the vehicle to make sure its safe so all the bleeding heart canadians can rest easy knowing we're perfectly safe in our LAV-IIIs, or that we're buying newer, less expensive, more poorly constructed vehicles claiming to be safer from a discount manufacturer somewhere.

At times the public reminds me of toronto maple leaf fans.When anything goes wrong, the question isnt 'what mistakes did we make' or 'how do we fix this situation' its often 'who do we blame for this?'

I suppose that people expect we should be using APCs that NEVER roll over and any kind of accident whatsoever is absolutely outrageous?
Maybe they should review how many car accidents there are per year, and re-think of cars are safe or not, and go back to wagons. :

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I knew this would happen as soon as I heard about the accident.... now we wait for the million dollar inquiries and inspections/reviews of the vehicle to make sure its safe so all the bleeding heart canadians can rest easy knowing we're perfectly safe in our LAV-IIIs, or that we're buying newer, less expensive, more poorly constructed vehicles claiming to be safer from a discount manufacturer somewhere.

At times the public reminds me of toronto maple leaf fans.When anything goes wrong, the question isnt 'what mistakes did we make' or 'how do we fix this situation' its often 'who do we blame for this?'

I suppose that people expect we should be using APCs that NEVER roll over and any kind of accident whatsoever is absolutely outrageous?
Maybe they should review how many car accidents there are per year, and re-think of cars are safe or not, and go back to wagons. :

Nah, we should just continue to write off every single Canadian civilian as a mouth-breathing moron instead.  Let's all take a deep breath.

Innnnnn

Outttttttttttttt

 

[jmackenzie_15]

I think youre underestimating the medias ability to brainwash the masses.
If they go on and on for a few days about how much of a suicide train the LAVs are, true or not, what do you think would happen?

Its the media I cant stand... they sell the most ridiculous one sided concepts sometimes.

 

[Gobsmacked]

As I'm sure its not Classified or OPSEC - if it is then the Army is being quite Anal,  :
I have a 'Clear up the Confusion' querry.

As noted in the 2004 BN, in March 2003, a 'CANLANGEN 004/03' message to commanders was issued "to address driver training and speed problem" for LAV-IIIs to stop rollovers.

What is the 'speed restriction' for LAV-IIIs ??  and is it weather dependent ??


[A few km/h restriction should not be that big a deal - or is truly as serious as the media is attempting to portray it?  :-\]

 

[Allen]

CTV NewsNet just reported some additional info....apparently, the LAV had to violently swerve to avoid another vehicle that was approaching late at night on the highway without its lights on. This apparently some preliminary info offered by the army.  Unfortunately I can't link to the story since I don't yet see it anywhere on the Internet. The accident story seems to have been moved off the CTV News web site altogether.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

CTV NewsNet just reported some additional info....apparently, the LAV had to violently swerve to avoid another vehicle that was approaching late at night on the highway without its lights on.

If buddy was swerving his LAV weighing how-many-tons to get out of the way of some local on a civvie tractor, that will certainly make an interesting twist in the media reports...selfless driver angle and all.  I think they call this "positive spin"...

 

[McG]

I suppose that people expect we should be using APCs that NEVER roll over and any kind of accident whatsoever

I've seen tanks turned upside down.  It can happen to anything given the "right" conditions. 

Many assumptions are being made without knowledge of light conditions, experience of the driver in that vehicle, ground conditions, experience of that crew comd, servicability of the vehicle, the axis about which the vehicle rolled, speed of the vehicle, etc.

 

[Allen]

Latest updates from CTV:

Soldier died when driver swerved to avoid car
CTV.ca News Staff

New information has revealed that a Canadian soldier died in Afghanistan because the driver of his military vehicle swerved to avoid an approaching car that wasn't using headlights.

After the light armoured vehicle swerved, the driver lost control of the vehicle which went off the highway and rolled over.

"It was purely and simply an accident to avoid a head-on collision," Craig Oliver, CTV's Chief Political Correspondent, reported.

Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield, 24, died in the accident. Four others were injured.

The highway Pte. Woodfield was travelling on connects Kabul with Kandahar and is one of the only modern roads in the country.

In war zones it is not uncommon for civilians to travel at night without using vehicle headlights, said Oliver.

He reiterated that no explosives were involved and the accident was not the result of an attack.

Earlier, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, was called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers.


There have been 10 rollover accidents in the six years the vehicle had been in use.

A 24-year-old Quebec soldier, Pte. Patrick Dessureault, died earlier this year when a LAV-III rolled over into a river during a training exercise in Alberta.

And last year, two Canadians were injured when their LAV rolled into a ravine in Bosnia.

However, Scott Taylor, of Esprit de Corps magazine, told CTV's Canada AM that he did not believe "the vehicle was to blame whatsoever" in the latest incident.

"This is one of the best pieces of kit that they've got in the Army," he said Friday.

Pte. Woodfield, from Eastern Passage, N.S., had been serving in Afghanistan since August.

The four other Canadian soldiers involved in the accident were taken to hospital with non life-threatening injuries.

They were identified as:

Sgt. Tony Nelson McIver, 31, of Fredericton, N.B.
Cpl. James Edward McDonald, 32, of Pembroke, Ont.
Cpl. Shane Dean Jones, 30, of White Rock, B.C.
Pte. Paul Schavo, 24, of London, Ont.
Colonel Steve Noonan, commander of Canadian forces in Afghanistan, told CTV's Canada AM that McIver and McDonald had both been released from hospital.

"Corporal Jones and Private Schavo are certainly stable and they will be moving up to Bagram Air Force Base for a scan as both received head injuries," he added.

All the soldiers were from the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment, based out of Gagetown, N.B.

Pte. Woodfield is the eighth Canadian to die in Afghanistan since Canada first sent soldiers into Afghanistan in 2002. Four died by friendly fire, two by anti-tank mines and one at the hand of a suicide bomber.

Some 250 Canadian troops are currently in Kandahar as part of a provincial reconstruction team (PRT). Ottawa is in the process of shifting its military presence from the capital Kabul to the more volatile southern region of Kandahar.

By February 2006, about 2,000 Canadian soldiers will be based in Kandahar and a Canadian general will take command of a multi-national force to fight insurgents.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/afghanistan_soldier_051125/20051125?hub=Canada

 

[medicineman]

I wonder what would have happened if the driver had decided to squish whatever was coming his way instead - more or less contrversy... :

MM

 

[Armymedic]

without the Cdn death, absolutely none at all...

 

[geo]

Guys,
The press' job is to go out there and ask questions.
It's our fault if we do not have SMEs on hand and available to answer them.

For the most part, the Press would be more than happy to use a quote from us.... but we go out and stonewall and tell em to wait for an inquiry.

If they had pointed out the fact that the LAV / AVGP is a tried and tested design, used by Canada and many countries for XX years with excellent results. Tell em that the AVGP original came from Mowag and was designed for the roads & mountains of Switzerland - we might have spared ourselves some grief.

The press slagged us on the Iltis cause we did it to ourselves. telling em that they were clapped out and a hunk of junk. Did anyone tell the press that the Iltis was probably the only small military vehicle able to manouver around in the narrow streets of Kabul?