Teamwork-is it forced????

[Haggis]

No one is better served by helping an incompetent person succeed. Teamwork is about accomplishing goals that would be impossible as an individual, not helping an individual do their job on a daily basis.

Wow, GO!!!  Bang on!

 

[MOOO!]

I am all for the team work.  Helping others develop to a standard is great and does increase morale in most cases.  BUT, on the other end I have instructed on a few courses were the dead weight of a few or even a individual kills the group.  From a staff side a few posts hit the head of the nail accurately.  Staff help out as much as they can,  but if the heart is not there and no effort is put into it (like GO, and his story) why keep those who might be in a leadership role from the sweat and blood of others.

You get a few chances in training no real chances in combat.  I want to have someone who is willing to try hard and sweat then people who don't even want to take the pain and do what others are doing. 

This is a old topic staff are all ways on the look out for.  Weeding is a part of the process, our business is tough and we have to keep the standards.  Yes some slip through but hopefully down the road that gets sorted out (fix the problem or remove it).

My cents worth.

"People in a mob are like cattle, they follow the crowd.  MOOOOO!"

 

[reccecrewman]

pass a kid up a grade or graduate them even though they dont deserve it = a possibly very bad employee, say

My RSM never got past Grade 9 - He's an outstanding RSM.  I can rattle off the names of over 20 NCO's in my Regiment that dropped out of school before completing Grade 10 - for the most part, all great NCO's, very knowledgeable and solid soldiers.  Then theres the flip side of the coin, I can name guys who completed high school, got a college certificate, are very intelligent, but not very good soldiers.  It really just comes down to how badly you want to wear the uniform, and not disgrace yourself, your unit or your Country while doing it.  What was that saying I heard earlier? Ah, "DRIVE & MOTIVATION"

 

[paracowboy]

My RSM never got past Grade 9 - He's an outstanding RSM.   I can rattle off the names of over 20 NCO's in my Regiment that dropped out of school before completing Grade 10 - for the most part, all great NCO's, very knowledgeable and solid soldiers.   Then theres the flip side of the coin, I can name guys who completed high school, got a college certificate, are very intelligent, but not very good soldiers.   It really just comes down to how badly you want to wear the uniform, and not disgrace yourself, your unit or your Country while doing it.   What was that saying I heard earlier? Ah, "DRIVE & MOTIVATION"

you're missing his point. He's not saying a schoolin' education is vital to becoming a soldier, he's saying that if you allow a kid to pass without meeting standard, you end up with a sub-par individual.

 

[reccecrewman]

I understood his point paracowboy, I was simply raising the point that you have to dig a little deeper than what you see on the surface.  Very valid points were made on his post, however, I was simply raising the point that just because somebody got passed in high school courses because the teaching staff didn't want to have to deal with the problem for another year doesn't nescessarily mean you have a future "bad-employee" 

 

[paracowboy]

granted, but I think we can agree that the likelihood is greater. Someone who pushes harder in school to meet or exceed the standard, is more likely to do the same once employed. SOmeone who slacks off in school is more likely to do the same once employed.
Exceptions abound. Case in point: me. I was a lousy student because it bored me. I try very hard to be a good soldier, however. But, looking back at the people I hung out with, the ones who skipped classes with me, or never did their homework because they were out partying with me, I am the only one who isn't living hand-to-mouth, in their parents' basement, or on some sort of government hand-out. (Although, one could stretch it a bit, and say I am on government pay, so...)

 

[combat_medic]

The one thing I'm surprised no one has addressed is the classroom portions of courses. I have found that it is often those who have little problems with PT are the ones who have more difficulty in the classroom. Part of the teamwork aspect of a course often involves other people helping carry these individuals through this by helping them study, review, take notes etc... should they be made to fail because they're weak? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. The tiny little guy may not be the best 84 gunner, but I'm willing to bet he'd be a good scout - since he's quick and little. Contrarywise the big, brick-$hithouse guys who have all the stealth of a Panzer tank may not be the best at, say, Recce, but I'd bet they'd be great machine gunners, and wouldn't even notice an extra 20 pounds of kit.

Employ people up to their abilities, right? I'm not saying to make everyone pass - God knows there are people out there who just couldn't pour pi$$ out of a boot if the instructions were written on the bottom. But just about everyone has something to contribute, and a good leader will know how to use people's strengths, and help them improve their weaknesses. How many soldiers have you met who are instantly good at classwork, PT, drill, shooting, and fieldcraft right off the bat? Probably not a damn one. Everyone needs help with something, and that's where teamwork comes in.

 

[Old Ranger]

But this is about Basic Training.....

Minimum standards before finding someone's neich!

 

[combat_medic]

Fair enough. If they aren't passing the PC/ECs, they should be gone.

 

[Old Ranger]

Agreed!

 

[mover1]

When birds fly in the right formation they need only exert half the effort, even in nature teamwork results in collective laziness.

 

[reccecrewman]

Thats not nescessarily a terrible thing..................... as long as you have everybody in your Troop/Platoon pulling together for a common goal, the job gets done that much quicker and more efficiently, rather than only having a couple guys doing all the work and taking alot longer to do it.  Of course, there is the bad side of this practice as well, as there are undoubtedly going to be one or two guys making puppies while the rest of the guys do the work - since everybody is moving around and doing a job, they will be able to slack off and be overlooked as people are too budy to pay them attention. But, it has been my experience that these people get noticed by their peers as slackers and end up being ostracized for it. (And damn rightly so) 

 

[Glorified Ape]

Seems to me that everyone has their off-days. If someone in the platoon needs a little help once in a while, no problem, so long as they do the same when others come up short. If someone's constantly screwing up, lagging behind, etc. then I have to agree with GO!!! - helping that person pass isn't doing anything but lowering the aggregate quality of CF personnel. Like I said, everyone has the occasional bad day, bad task, etc. and deserves help when they have one. If the "bad day" is the norm more than the exception, helping them pass is destructive to the person and the CF.

I don't understand how chronic laggers/screw-ups can live with themselves; constantly being propped up by the others. I personally find it embarassing and guilt-inducing as hell when I need help from the others because of some deficiency on my part. To have that constantly occuring would be absolute hell. That embarassment and guilt, I find, is the greatest motivation not to be in that position again. I don't understand how people can't be so embarassed and guilt-ridden by constant shortcomings that they either shape up or drop out.  ???

 

[Sig_Des]

I personally find it embarassing and guilt-inducing as heck when I need help from the others because of some deficiency on my part. To have that constantly occuring would be absolute heck. That embarassment and guilt, I find, is the greatest motivation not to be in that position again.

sadly, not everyone sees it that way. Some assume people should be continuously covering for them. Don't get me wrong, I'll help people out, and appreciate help given to me if nescessary, but that makes me strive to work to a point where I don't need help. And making the same mistakes twice is a no no

 

[armyvern]

sadly, not everyone sees it that way. Some assume people should be continuously covering for them. Don't get me wrong, I'll help people out, and appreciate help given to me if nescessary, but that makes me strive to work to a point where I don't need help. And making the same mistakes twice is a no no

I totally agree...there are quite too many out there these days that are quite contented to collect the paycheck but make absolutely no attempt to ever pass go.